CEL court claim issued - do I pay??

VER5513

I think what we need to do is cut off the snake's head instead of keep poking it. BPA said they would take action if CEL were in breach of BPA's code of practice (CoP) at the least disciplinary measures, but if they are in serious breach they would terminate their membership. My suggestion is that if everyone emails BPA saying that they want to complain about a company in breach of their CoP. They will then tell you what to do. Download their code of practice which is on their website under tab 'professional development'. It is relatively easy to read and I was so surprised on how many levels CEL are in breach of it. We could put a stop to this nonsense if everyone does this. It is only through the law that we can tackle this matter no-body seems interested in what is morally right.

VER5513

without the backing of the BPA, their cases will be so much weaker.

VER5513

in fact they may not be able to operate or function properly at all.

Umkomaas

You have more faith in the BPA than any regular here. If you want to know their likely sanctioning of a major member and contributor to their funds, just read how they have failed to do anything in regard to a small fry operator who has lost at court 18 times for the same car park.

Read the ‘Comments’ section covering the email exchange with the BPA about potential sanction points.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/private-parking-solutions-london-ltd.html#comment-form

nosferatu1001

CPR27.14 tells you all about costs.

They can claim about £200,a syouve been told. Fixed costs (filing, hearing, plus up to £50 solicitor fees) plus the amount of the ticket.

Lozza63

Thanks,

How do I find what CPR 27.14 is? My original fine was £100 but assume it went up to £236 due to involving debt collectors and solicitors. Can they claim for this also? Sorry if I can find this info somewhere. I am new to this and don't know where to read up. I am happy to look if you can guide me where to find this?

Thanks

KeithP

Sticking CPR 27.14 into google will answer your first question.

Coupon-mad

assume it went up to £236 due to involving debt collectors and solicitors. Can they claim for this also?

They can and do try, but no, they can't and no cases we've helped posters defend v CEL have got to a hearing. No-one has paid; these cases have ALL been discontinued. They are looking for victims who are not being assisted on a forum.

I will continue with defence, but wanted to ask another question. Has anyone been to court with CEL and lost?

Nope. As above, none have got to a hearing and with other PPCs, where cases DO get to a hearing, we have 99% win rate.

Have a look at the thread by wanderer2426, where solicitor poster, LoadsofChildren123, has drafted a letter for the CCBC about the late Particulars of Claim.

Loadsofchildren123

They claim:-
Original undiscounted charge (usually £100)
Costs/issue fee (£50+25)
Interest (usually a very small sum, depending how many months/years it's been outstanding - say £5)
"Additional charges" (they just make these up, they are NEVER defined on any signage I've ever seen).

You challenge these separately:
Original charge - case not like Beavis therefore penalty rule still applies
Costs - they aren't using solicitors so why should they be entitled to £50 for solicitors?
Interest - this is in the court's discretion. Two Rguments here. If the PPC has delayed unreasonably in bringing the claim why should they get full interest. And the court rate is 8% pa, but Bank of England rate is much much lower and it's not fair or proper.
Additional charges - not defined on the signage, plus the undiscounted add-back proportion of the parking charge must represent such additional admin charges and it would be double recovery to allow them.

Lozza63

OK,
I have looked up CPR 27.14 to look up claim costs. My understanding is that the maximum they could claim for their legal advice and costs is £260 and for a witnesses or anyones loss of earnings is £95 per day. Nosferatu1001 said about £200 plus cost of ticket.

The cost of my ticket was originally £100 but increased to £140 after ZZPS got involved in debt recovery then £200 then £236 after solictors got involved plus interest £255 plus court fee/legal fees now £330.40.

Couple of questions:
1) If I lost in court, would my costs then be the approx £200 I would need to pay for their court/legal fees plus the £330.40 for the ticket?

2) In the letter I received from ZZPS, they state that court fees, solictors costs and statutory interest could be added to the amount owed if I did not pay and then the solictors letter said original PCN was £140 with outstanding balance incl additional charges "the debt" being £236. They state their client (CEL) have followed all the correct processes in pursuing the matter and that clients have confirmed any further evidence will only be provided at litigation stage.
Although on one hand I can understand costs being added to an original fine for non payment, these seem excessive. Are there maximum amounts companies can charge for collecting debt and sending out solictors letters for a £100 fine. A simple statement on a final reminder PCN saying failure to pay may incur additional costs didn't provide us with an explanation as to how much these would be.
Can they do this - or can I complain about this in my defence statement?

3) I have been reading into the POFA 2012 that talks about keeper liability. It says that when an APNR system is used a Notice to keeper has to be issued within 14 days of the car being parked. Is the notice to keeper the same as the PCN? If so, my incident date was 30/9/2017 and the PCN issue date was 26/10/16.
Do I have any grounds here to complain in my defence?

4) I have been back to the sight to look at the signage. The signs say PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY. Clients must register on touch screen at reception. If you park without obtaining a valid permit you agree to pay £100. We use APNR cameras to monitor the private property and may obtain details of registed keeper from DVLA to issue PCN. It looks fairly readable now we have been back and there are various signs placed around the car park although we didn't see them at the time.
So , not sure we can use bad signage as part of defence.

5) Do I have any legal line of defence which says that the £100 is not a reasonable penalty or reflection of any loss suffered given the Beavis vs Parking Eye case dismissed this?

6) If they have provided signage and we can't argue on the other points - is my only line of defence the fact that I asked for a copy of the contract in my first letter to them and they still haven't provided me with one? see below

In the first letter I wrote to CEL when we received original fine, I'd looked on-line and written the following letter to CEL:


Civil Enforcement
Horton House
Exchange Flags
Liverpool L2 3PF

Date xxxxx

Dear Sir/Madam
Re PCN no: xxxxx
I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xxxx for the alleged car parking incident on xxxx on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.

1. The large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and/or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.
2. We did not park there during normal office hours as it was a Friday evening at 8.30pm at night therefore the contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land owner but if you believe it has please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe I have committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so my presence did not prevent the parking of other cars or obstruct anyone in any way.
3. As we had approached the car park from across the road, we did not see the signage in the place where I parked or at the entrance to the area where I parked as it was facing the other way. The requirements are that clear signage must be erected at each entrance and additional signage installed throughout the area. Therefore I have not entered into a contract with you.
4. Having since re-visited the site and researched the rules I now see there are a couple of other signs stating permit holders only and a sign stating it is a private car park for clients only – but as I stated we did not see this as we entered into the car park from the other end of the street and only saw the business sign on the wall. We assumed since it was a solicitors office and there were empty bays and it was 8.30pm on a Friday evening that we were not obstructing anyone from parking. It was our daughters 16th birthday and we were late for the restaurant and really did not think we were preventing anyone else from parking here from a business point of view at 8.30pm at night. You are also using ANPR camera systems but this is not clearly advertised on the signage.
5. Your Civil Parking Notice constitutes an invoice for payment. Accordingly your invoiced charge must include an element of VAT. However, your civil parking notice does not state either a VAT registration number or an invoice reference number and so cannot constitute a lawfully valid demand for payment.

6. If this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to P.O.P.L.A please provide the following documentation:
A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.
A copy of the contract which you allege I entered in to when I parked.
Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed. Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.
A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where I was allegedly parked wrongly.
A copy of your certificate of membership of the BPA
A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.
A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.
Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.
A copy of all of the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.
A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than POPLA in the event of an appeal) but please confirm this.

Please provide this information within 35 days of receipt. If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.



They replied to my appeal with a letter saying details of appeal on on the attached pages and included a 3 page standard question and answer sheet. the key points being


a) Under what law was PCN issued? - they stated it was contract law that PCN was issued under.
b) They were authorised to issue tickets as a car park mgt company managing on behalf of clients (no details can be provided with details of contract due to the Data Protection Act

c) The Charge is within the guidelines of BPA fruther to recent court of appeal in case PArking Eye vs Beavis saying charges are commercially justifiable and legal.

d) They say even if car park wasn't full - the capacity of car park does not alter the stated parking terms. Signs in car park state this. If is drivers responsability to read and comply with signage.


7) Most of the templates I have seen include arguments that I can't use now. Are there any legal arguments I can use that cover the unreasonable fine for an unjustifiable loss? Or because t was a contract I entered into - Am I scuppered?

8) Could I enter a partial defense that might say - I have been back and seen the signs but as I never received a copy of the contract they had with the landowner, I did not know whether they were operating legally or justifiably. Therefore I would be happy to pay a fine if they can justify it?
Apologies for the very long post. I have tried to break my points and questions out so it is more readable.
I have submitted a letter to the claims court about them not adhering to PoC timelines - as I agree the more of us that do this the better.

Any help greatly appreciated.