CEL court claim issued - do I pay??

Lozza63

This thread is my first and is about a parking fine from CEL which I received back in Oct 2016. I originally received the PCN for parking in what we thought was an office car park at 8.30pm whereby all business had finished and we were not obsructing anyone from parking or carrying out their regualar trade. It was dark and we did not see the signs but on returning to the site have seen that there are signs. I do not remember whether it was my husband or myself driving but I appealed to the fine although it was issued under his name as he is the registered keeper. I lost the appeal to CEL as they said there was sufficient signage and we had entered into a contract by parking there and therefore needed to pay. I called the solictors office to ask about the parking but they said it was out of their hands as it was managed by CEL and therefore couldn't revoke the fine. We have since received many debt collector letters and letters from solictors including a formal letter of claim from Wright Hassal Solicitors who we have written to and who have stated that their client CEL have followed all the correct procedures. I had read that CEL were parking cowboys and not to pay the fine. I then wrote to |BMPA support who said that CEL rarely go to court. I have now received a court claim form dated Oct 11 which I have responded to but need to send in my defence. My original reasons for not paying the fine was that the £100 charge was excessive given that we only parked there for 2hours on a friday evening outside of normal trading hours and therefore not obstructing anyone else from parking to use the offices. However, reading these threads - this doesn't appear to be a valid defence. They also sent me a couple of pages detailing why my appeal was not successful which looked like answers to a set of generic questions but talked about the ticket being issued under contract law where signs clearly display the terms and conditions of parking. It would appear that my only defence therefore would be the section in the template about signs not being legible and there being no proof of them being the landowner (although they state they manage it on behalf of their client).
Is it still worth me presenting a defence as the bill is now £330.40? Thanks

claxtome

I lost the appeal to CEL

The PPC (CEL in this case) very rarely allow appeals to be successful as it is in their best interest financially to let it continue.

Is it still worth me presenting a defence as the bill is now £330.40?

It is always worth continuing as usually the bill if you lose at court will be at less than this. Also do you really want to pay that bill. Surely, with the forums help, do you not want to fight. We have a good record against PPC who listen to our help.

If you want to fight I suggest you do the following things to help your cause->
1) Edit the post above #1 to add in some paragraph breaks. In its current form it is not easy to read and a lot of forum members prefer things easy to read otherwise they will just move onto the next case.

2) Please read the NEWBIES thread so you can see what you need to do and when. I am a little unsure if you have received an MCOL letter yet or not. Also as your claim was started in October there is new regulations about the Particulars of Claim. Read this thread in the hope this helps you:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5735738

And this post #38 by johnnersh
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5722800

3) Look at all the other recent CEL threads. (There have been loads). Although not exactly the same as yours there will be similar with arguments you can use at defence stage.

Umkomaas

In its current form it is not easy to read and a lot of forum members prefer things easy to read otherwise they will just move onto the next case.

I agree. I’ve just ‘moved on’ without reading.

fisherjim

I went dizzy trying to read all that and gave up!

The only things I kept seeing was "fine" it's not a fine and £330.40 they can't claim that.

If you write your defence in that manner no one will read it sorry!

Loadsofchildren123

First of all read the new Protocol on Debt Claims. That explains clearly what CEL should have done prior to issuing a claim.

Next, fire off a letter complaining about their breaches, with specifics (eg they must clearly tell you how the extra add-ons have been calculated).

Does the claim form say that further PoC are "to follow"? And have you received this? Time starts running for your defence only when this has been served.

CEL are in the habit of serving the further PoC 2-3 weeks late. Under the rules this mean they have not been validly served, unless CEL gets formal relief under 3.8/3.9 of the CPR (the court rules).

You could therefore write to CEL and the court pointing out this breach and saying they must apply and until they do you will not be filing a defence (because until relief has been applied for and granted under rule 3.9 the PoC have not been validly served). While you wait for a response, get on with your defence anyway. Please look at my CEL general advice thread for more details. And read the other CEL current threads - this advice is repeated on almost every one.

Lozza63

Thank you all for your input. It was late when I posted the thread and was getting a little worried I was running out of time.
Facts are as follows:

1) Received Fine on Ooct 30th 2016 after parking for 2 hours at 8,30 pm in private car park.

2) Sent appeal letter to CEL requesting copy of their contract but refused appeal - couldn't get popla appeal code to work - but was told by BMPA it was a valid code.
3) CEL sent me a response to representation letter on 10/11/2016 with a two page set of answers to general questions such as Under what law was the fine issued, who authorised to issue tickets, why the charge is valid at £100 (previous PArking Eye vs Beavis precedent etc (which I assume is to cover them for the type of points that get sent in when people sent in their defence.

3) CEL also sent a Letter before Action stating outstanding debt of £140 which was in accodance with Pre Action and Protocol and including Draft particulars of Claim between CEL v defendant (too lengthy to include here - but can I post somewhere else?)

4) I Received various debt form letter for ZZPS

5) I received various letters from Wright Hassall Solicitors saying they were instructed by ZZPS on behalf of CEL and stating it was a Letter before Claim pursuant to the Practice Direction on Pre Action Conduct and Protocols and sending me a list of organisations such as Citizens advice and Civil Legal Advice where I could seek independant advice.

6) I received a County Court claim form issued on Oct 11 2017 which said I could repsond on line to " money claim gov uk" which I did.
There were particulars of Claim including claiming outstanding debt and interest and saying they will provide me with the detailed particulars within 14 days after service of the claim form. I did not know what the draft particulars of claim were for which they sent in January. Do these count or will they simply reissue them again (in non Draft version)?

7) I said I wanted to defend the claim. Do I only have 14 days to do this. If so, am I best just getting something in for now?

8) Do they send the particulars of claim to myself by mail?

Thanks

Loadsofchildren123

You have 14 days FROM SERVICE OF THE FURTHER PARTICULARS, not 14 days from your AoS.


Who is Xxxxxx mentioned in your para 3)?????? If he's somebody completely different to you, and it's a different car park etc, then you can't assume the new PoC are going to be like the draft ones.


When the further PoCs arrive, they will probably (like all others this forum has seen over the past week or two) be backdated to make it appear as though they were submitted much earlier. What is the reason for the backdating? Either to make you think you have to file your defence much earlier than you actually do (ie make you hurry and make mistakes), or possibly even to make it appear that you are late in filing your defence so that they can apply for default judgment.


When the PoC arrive, check the date on the PoC and covering letter and the dated post mark on the envelope. The actual date of service is the next working day after they were posted (the envelope date). Keep that envelope safe. Then write to CEL and the court to complain about this blatant backdating - precedent letter on this thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73341037#Comment_73341037
The point is you need to tell the court the date they were really served, and the date your defence is really due.


If the PoC are served late (more than 19 days after the date on the Claim Form) then you could also write to the court and CEL to say that they are out of time and the PoC are not validly served without relief from sanctions being applied for, and granted, under Rule 3.9, and that time does not start running for you to file your defence until this has been done. The court however is likely to grant the relief if they are only a few days out of time, although it is a nice hoop to make CEL jump through. If you choose to write this letter, don't assume that the timetable has stopped and get on with your defence. All of this, including the relevant court rules, is set out in other CEL threads this week and last week. It seems to be all I'm doing at the moment. You need to look at these other threads and I suggest you subscribe to them so that they are easy for you to keep track of as these other cases develop.


The good news is CEL often withdraw when they see a well defended case (but not until the proceedings are quite advanced). So you need to roll your sleeves up and get ready to fight.

Loadsofchildren123

Lozza63 wrote: »

7) I said I wanted to defend the claim. Do I only have 14 days to do this. If so, am I best just getting something in for now?

Absolutely not.

AndySab

I understand your panic Lozza63, it's massively confusing at first and you're thinking "I only parked in a car park, caused no one any problems and now these b******s are after hundreds of pounds from me. It's exactly what I thought.

Grab a cuppa, have a read of the newbies thread, follow the links of there to other people's defences and pay attention to the paragraphs they've got in there referring to signage, whether it's lit. When you get the particulars of claim through (which will probably arrive late) they'll be scant, lack photos, copies of the "contract" or landowner contracts. Look at the defences linked from the newbies thread and the references made to that.

From that you'll be able to draft a defence (which will involve a lot of cutting and pasting from here) and post it in this thread, then someone will offer suggestions for changes, bits to add in, bits to take out.

Lozza63

Just a quick question. The fine was sent to my husband who is the registered keeper. I am his wife who was with him at the time. I have been the one writing to CEL. Does he need to defend the claim or can I.

Also, I will assume that CEL will send the PoC soon as they already sent a draft version as I mentioned back in January (which I didn't do anything with as at the time I was told to wait till they issued a county court claim.
I'm assuming this means that I can't include the points in the other peoples defences that states Claim form particulars were sparse and that I have no idea what the claim is about. Early engagement between the parties did exist in terms of them sending debt letters and solicitors letter asking me to pay but they didn't ever send me a copy of their contract with the landowner in terms of how they manage the carpark as I requested.
Is this point relevant, do they have to send this to me or not?

Thanks
It appears that they are now being clever in sending out a letter before action and draft particulars of claim in advance. Does this not now make my defence difficult?

Coupon-mad

Does he need to defend the claim or can I.

Glad you asked - OF COURSE it's his case to defend, not yours. He's the Defendant.

You can accompany him to any hearing as a lay rep, but in any case we've not seen a single CEL case defended well on this forum, actually go as far as any hearing, not even one.

It appears that they are now being clever in sending out a letter before action and draft particulars of claim in advance. Does this not now make my defence difficult?

Nope. These CEL bulk cases are among the easiest ones. Sounds like they have not followed the CPR for pre-action conduct. What date was the Letter before Action/Claim?