MCOL from CEL for PCN from October 2015

AMC666

Coupon-mad wrote: »

What did your counter claim say?

Do NOT follow advice from any poster who has just joined, nor anyone who sends you a private message offering to help.

In the reason for counterclaim section I just wrote:
"Travel costs to court, stress and anxiety, data misuse"

Both my defence and counterclaim I sent off were really short that's why I am a bit worried and wanted to see if I could amend these somehow.

Coupon-mad

Did you pay £25 to file the counter-claim?

DON'T.

Let it go, it has no chance. You cannot amend your Particulars of Counterclaim at no cost - so forget it.

Didn't you even read some basic court info about how to (later) claim travel costs? People don't have to file a counter-claim to recover their costs. That is not a counter claim and it has no merit so forget that, put it down to a mistake (human error) on the form by someone unused to the court process, if the PPC ask about it if you get to a hearing.

AMC666

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Did you pay £25 to file the counter-claim?

DON'T.

Let it go, it has no chance. You cannot amend your Particulars of Counterclaim at no cost - so forget it.

Didn't you even read some basic court info about how to (later) claim travel costs? People don't have to file a counter-claim to recover their costs. That is not a counter claim and it has no merit so forget that, put it down to a mistake (human error) on the form by someone unused to the court process, if the PPC ask about it if you get to a hearing.

Yes, I paid the £25 fee to file it.

I did read the info on this forum but I thought anything I was claiming, I had to include in the counterclaim.

Shall I just forget about the counter claim and wait for a hearing date and just show the judge proof that I disposed of the vehicle on 21/10/15 and the date of the PCN is 22/10/15 and that that I wrote to them informing them of this twice and never heard back from them for 18 months until I received the MCOL letter.

Loadsofchildren123

I don’t think all is lost with the counterclaim. You’ve said data misuse which they, as serial and seasoned litigants, will know is a claim for damages under the Data Protection Act. You will probably get away with it as a LiP.
But you must deal with it properly in your WS. You will need to prove distress so in your WS you need to describe the worry and stress you have suffered every time you hear from them and now a completely baseless claim.

It’s too late to change the amount.

The other thing you’ve missed out is a claim for costs in respect of the counterclaim. If you don’t ask for them the court has no power to award them.

How did they get your details if you were no longer the RK at DVLA on the date of the PCN?

The more serious mistake here is saying 2017 in your defence instead of 2015. You need to write to the Claimant and point out this error (say it is an obvious error because you’ve already written to them on x date showing the date you sold the car). Also say that if it is not clear from the counterclaim, it includes a claim for costs. Say that because it is an obvious error you will apply at the final hearing for permission to amend the defence in respect of these 2 matters. Also explain this in your WS. A judge should have some sympathy for you given that this claim is baseless and they already know it is, and you are a LiP.

Have a go at drafting your WS and post it here for commments/help.

AMC666

Loadsofchildren123 wrote: »

How did they get your details if you were no longer the RK at DVLA on the date of the PCN?

I am not sure, date of PCN is 22/10/15 and date I disposed of vehicle is 21/10/15 but I am guessing that they would have requested details of the owner after 22/10/15 so DVLa shoudln't have gave them my details as they sent the PCN around 10 November 2015.

Loadsofchildren123 wrote: »

The more serious mistake here is saying 2017 in your defence instead of 2015. You need to write to the Claimant and point out this error (say it is an obvious error because you’ve already written to them on x date showing the date you sold the car). Also say that if it is not clear from the counterclaim, it includes a claim for costs. Say that because it is an obvious error you will apply at the final hearing for permission to amend the defence in respect of these 2 matters. Also explain this in your WS. A judge should have some sympathy for you given that this claim is baseless and they already know it is, and you are a LiP.

Shall I write a letter to CEL explaining the above and say I will be including more details in the witness statement. Do I need to send a copy of this letter to the court as well?

Loadsofchildren123 wrote: »

Have a go at drafting your WS and post it here for commments/help.

I haven't drafted one yet, I just sent of the DQ on Friday so will be drafting one in the next few days.

When I draft the witness statement breaking down costs and whatever I am claiming for etc do I need to make sure it doesn't go above £300?

The_Deep

No-one has mentioned unreasonable behaviour here.

I cannot imagine anything more unreasonable than taking someone to court for an offence committed in a car they were not driving and did not own, especially when given proof of this, and continued to press ahead with legal action.

Could not the court award punitive costs, a la the Indigo case? A more blatent waste of court time is difficult to imagine. OK the OP might not benefit but at least the taxpayer would not end up out of pocket.

Umkomaas

I am not sure, date of PCN is 22/10/15 and date I disposed of vehicle is 21/10/15 but I am guessing that they would have requested details of the owner after 22/10/15 so DVLa shoudln't have gave them my details as they sent the PCN around 10 November 2015.

If you sold the vehicle the day before the parking event, when did you send in your V5C to notify the DVLA?

It’s pretty certain that if this was an ANPR camera capture, CEL would have accessed your data electronically from the DVLA within 48 hours. There would be no way your records would have been updated in that time by DVLA - it can often take 3 weeks.

Even when the record is updated, there is nothing in the KADOE agreement for the DVLA to further update the PPC.

So while you have a very legitimate point to make to the judge that you were no longer the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle on the date of the parking event, trying to find a crack in CEL’s access your data is likely a waste of time and energy.

They would have been given the ‘correct’ data as it existed on the DVLA system on the day it was accessed, with no updating subsequently. They’ve done nothing wrong in that regard, what they have done wrong is continue to pursue in light of evidence that they’ve ‘got the wrong marine’.

AMC666

Umkomaas wrote: »

If you sold the vehicle the day before the parking event, when did you send in your V5C to notify the DVLA?

It’s pretty certain that if this was an ANPR camera capture, CEL would have accessed your data electronically from the DVLA within 48 hours. There would be no way your records would have been updated in that time by DVLA - it can often take 3 weeks.

Even when the record is updated, there is nothing in the KADOE agreement for the DVLA to further update the PPC.

So while you have a very legitimate point to make to the judge that you were no longer the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle on the date of the parking event, trying to find a crack in CEL’s access your data is likely a waste of time and energy.

They would have been given the ‘correct’ data as it existed on the DVLA system on the day it was accessed, with no updating subsequently. They’ve done nothing wrong in that regard, what they have done wrong is continue to pursue in light of evidence that they’ve ‘got the wrong marine’.

I can't remember when I posted it but would have been within a few days of selling.

When they wrote to me n November, I informed them of this and sent proof but they still wrote back to me in January 2016 and i again informed them with proof and never heard from them again until the MCOL came through in October 2017.

After I sent them proof that I was not the owner of the vehicle on the date of the PCN, I don't see why it is reasonable for them to pursue a MCOL against me especially when I have been reasonable with them sending them the relevant proof, they are just wasting my time and causing undue stress and wasting the courts time. I thought after filing my defence they would drop it but they seem to be quite persistent. Any reasonable lawyer would see that there is no case and would have advised them to drop the case especially after my defence.

The_Deep

Read this, the OP was awarded £1,500 in costs.


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73268332#Comment_73268332

Umkomaas

AMC666 wrote: »

I can't remember when I posted it but would have been within a few days of selling.

When they wrote to me n November, I informed them of this and sent proof but they still wrote back to me in January 2016 and i again informed them with proof and never heard from them again until the MCOL came through in October 2017.

After I sent them proof that I was not the owner of the vehicle on the date of the PCN, I don't see why it is reasonable for them to pursue a MCOL against me especially when I have been reasonable with them sending them the relevant proof, they are just wasting my time and causing undue stress and wasting the courts time. I thought after filing my defence they would drop it but they seem to be quite persistent. Any reasonable lawyer would see that there is no case and would have advised them to drop the case especially after my defence.

But you’re making a very shaky assumption that they’ve even read your correspondence. Notwithstanding your very firm ground for fighting this, I’m afraid you’re in exactly the same boat as thousands of other motorists hit by this CEL MCOL behemoth. They are issuing these claims in lorryloads, they have heaps of unpaid PCNs being shovelled on to the MCOL conveyor belt, everything is automated, the only ones they will ever sit up, notice and deal with (via a discontinuation) is when a strong and robust defence and witness statement are submitted and a court date is looming.

While I have every sympathy for your situation, I’m afraid you’re going to have to play their game, as they are currently calling most of the shots, although your counterclaim does provide you with a bit of ammo and they won’t be able to avoid a court hearing as a result of it. I think a judge would look very unfavourably on them, maybe they will try to settle beforehand, but it’s likely to go to the wire.