Income Support + ESA (Couple): Applicable Premiums?

ViZuS

Hi, first attempt at using a forum to try and resolve this after much back and forth with DWP, so here goes:

CURRENT STATUS:
- Couple's joint claim, no additional income beyond benefits
- Partner has DLA: Middle Rate Care + Lower Rate Mobility
- I claim Income Support (IS) + Carer's Allowance (CA), caring for partner over 35 hours/week
- Partner receives ESA (Cont) in Support Group (main phase), transitioned from long-term Incapacity Benefit

IS received (couples rates) = [ Personal Allowance + Disability Premium + Carer Premium ] minus [ ESA (Cont) + CA ]

Thought that was fine but then double-checked with MSE Benefits Calculator 'EntitledTo' (inputting same status details as DWP have been using). Got a DIFFERENT result though!:

IS = [ Personal Allowance + Disability Premium + Carer Premium + ENHANCED DISABILITY PREMIUM ] minus [ ESA (Cont) + CA ]

Calculator advises we are eligible to get an additional Enhanced Disability Premium (EDP) in our applicable amount, so an extra £22.85 per week that should have received all this time!?

From what I've researched, this EDP is payable because partner is in Support Group for ESA, but we've never heard any mention of this from DWP, before, during or after transition from Incapacity to ESA. Is this for real? Does anyone know enough about the rules for our circumstance to be able to confirm this and advise what we say to DWP to get this component added?

For clarity, the calculator is showing our total assessed Income as "contribution based ESA" + "Client carer's allowance", with the applicable personal allowance + premiums deducted from this to arrive at the new Income Support figure. Again, this appears to be fine and makes sense on paper, but then I can't see why we wouldn't be receiving this already? Are we missing something?

I've spent weeks trawling the net for forum advice and official government publications, even checked the actual Welfare legislation and some Decision Makers Guidance docs (heavy reading!), but nowhere can I see any mention of our specific circumstance to know what should actually apply. Tried phoning the helplines already obviously, but tired of paying for lengthy calls on hold that then just time out having spoken to nobody! Please, is there someone out there who can do more than just quote general guidance? Hoping someone can finally shine a light on this....

bigbill

You would only get the enhanced in income support if your partner had the high rate care of DLA?

If would be added to income based ESA if she changed to this due to being in the support group.

epitome

I don't think Income Support pays EDP if partner is is in ESA Support Group

EDP is paid on Income Support if one of you gets "DLA High rate Care" or "PIP DL Enhanced"

ESA will pay on an ESA Income Related claim ...EDP... if the ESA claimant is in the Support Group.

The Benefit Calculator is wrong

Try the "entitled to" calculator

poppy12345

Yes the benefit calculator is wrong, as clearly stated here.
https://www.gov.uk/disability-premiums-income-support/eligibility

ViZuS

Same result with 'EntiltledTo' calculator directly I'm afraid (MSE uses the same bit of software to calculate I think anyhow). If this particular calculator is wrong for this scenario then must be misleading lots of other users too! EntiltledTo is one of the DWP recommended calculators as well, so which calculators can we trust? Anyone know of any better ones that are more reliable, or the ones actually used by government to work these things out?

Considering your comments about Support Group status being valid or not, as an experiment I went through the calculator again, but when asked if partner in Support Group selected no instead of yes: only change to results was no more EDP listed in the applicable amount due - so that would appear to confirm that the EntitledTo calculator automatically gives EDP in the result if ESA Support Group is stated (whether or not ESA is Contribution or Income-related version!). Anyone else aware of this discrepancy when using calculators?

Out of curiosity I completed the calculator yet again, but with client and partner details reversed, so partner's ESA as lead claimant. Result somewhat different for same status, just filled out in opposite order:

NO Income Support payable, instead:
ESA (Income-related) = [ Personal Allowance + Client Support Component + Enhanced Disability Premium + Carer Premium] minus [ ESA (Cont) + CA ]

So that last way has the only payment going to my partner as ESA claimant, no more IS in my name. Is that all correct, or a dodgy calculation again? Hard to know what to believe now!

I've read about the higher DLA rates enabling EDP payments, so that aspect is pretty clear to me, but as for the impact of ESA Support Group status, I'm thinking things maybe aren't so straightforward? Looking at the different ways I've assessed our income and the amounts generated, the calculator appears to be showing a top-up of ESA (IR) over an underlying ESA (Cont). Is that the correct interpretation?
If that's the case then, could my partner's ESA claim technically be viewed as being Income-related (as well as Contributory), thus enabling the EDP component that was showing in the original Income Support calculation? Hence calculator not wrong after all??

Thanks to all of you for the replies so far, still all seems very open to interpretation as to what results one might get. I have read that certain ESA claimants might have to decide which route of claim is best for them, like there really is a choice that needs to be considered in every possible way, so is that what I'm actually discovering here or simply a rogue calculator that's been programmed wrong? So far I've been able to produce three different outcomes and overall benefit amounts due, but are any of these valid choices we could actually opt for? Only thing I am more sure of now is, as a couple without any other income, we should both clearly qualify for Income-related considerations. However my partner is also eligible for a Contributory route so how can these things combine? Legally, I think I'm right in saying that only one member of a couple can claim an Income-related benefit, but which of us should be the one is our problem maybe.

Hoogle

ff you get income-related Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) you can’t get the basic disability premium, but you may still qualify for the severe and enhanced premiums.

Rate if you qualify
You’ll get this if you meet all of the following conditions:

you live alone
you get the middle or highest care component of DLA
no-one gets Carer’s Allowance for looking after you

epitome

ViZuS wrote: »

Out of curiosity, I completed the calculator yet again, but with client and partner details reversed, so partner's ESA as lead claimant. Result somewhat different for same status, just filled out in opposite order:

NO Income Support payable, instead:
ESA (Income-related) = [ Personal Allowance + Client Support Component + Enhanced Disability Premium + Carer Premium] minus [ ESA (Cont) + CA ]

So that last way has the only payment going to my partner as ESA claimant, no more IS in my name. Is that all correct, or a dodgy calculation again? Hard to know what to believe now!

That calcualtion is correct, IF ESA IR is claimed by the Support Group person, then EDP is automatically paid. and Income Support would have to be closed.

the calculator appears to be showing a top-up of ESA (IR) over an underlying ESA (Cont). Is that the correct interpretation?

That would be correct.

If that's the case then, could my partner's ESA claim technically be viewed as being Income-related (as well as Contributory), thus enabling the EDP component that was showing in the original Income Support calculation? Hence calculator not wrong after all??

In the ESA calcualtion your partners claim would be ESA IR (with EDP automatically included) Th ESA award would include within it an award of ESA Conts.... The calculator is not wrong for the ESA IR calculation.

Thanks to all of you for the replies so far, still all seems very open to interpretation as to what results one might get. I have read that certain ESA claimants might have to decide which route of claim is best for them, like there really is a choice that needs to be considered in every possible way, so is that what I'm actually discovering here or simply a rogue calculator that's been programmed wrong?

There can be differences between ESA and Income Support, usually (maybe always) IS is better then ESA when the DLA or PIP is enhanced for care.

I think I'm right in saying that only one member of a couple can claim an Income-related benefit, but which of us should be the one is our problem maybe.

Yes only one can claim Income Related.
I was going to say you just check on a calculator and determine which is best....but that's obviously not working out for you.

I would take the EDP off the Income Support Calculation, until someone comes along and proves the Income Support calculator to be correct or incorrect. There used to be a lot of info on NHS website about benefits and premiums but it has all been deleted now.

The Gov website for Income Support Premiums is not very well written but as far as I can see, confirms my point of view EDP is not payable on Income Support if partner is on ESA Conts Support Group.

pmlindyloo

Apologies.

Have deleted my post so as not to confuse anyone. Was using ESA instead of Income Support.

Have just used MSE quick benefit check and there was no EDP included.

nannytone_2

pmlindyloo wrote: »

Apologies.

Have deleted my post so as not to confuse anyone. Was using ESA instead of Income Support.

Have just used MSE quick benefit check and there was no EDP included.

that is because the OP is claiming income support for the income related part of their claim.
EDP isn't payable on contributions only ESA claims ... there has to be an element of income related.

the EDP is paid either with the support group of ESA OR high rate care DLA/enhanced PIP

ViZuS

Thanks again for all your further posts. There is a lot of detail with this case and differing considerations of ESA that may be causing some confusion, so I'm going to put some numbers to this so everyone is clear exactly what we're seeing. To summarise, we are facing 2 routes forward as a couple according to the way the calculators seem to present things (remembering that my partner is currently entitled to (Cont) ESA Support Group and I am her full-time carer so receive the Allowance/Premium for that also):

(1) A couples claim based on Income Support (paid in my name) which takes account of partner's separate payment for (Cont) ESA; OR
(2) A couples claim based on fully Income-related ESA (in partner's name as only payment)

For (2) I don't think we're challenging the calculator results which show as follows (at 2016/17 amounts):
APPLICABLE AMOUNT:
personal allowance (main phase): £114.85
client support component: £36.20
enhanced disability premium: £22.60
carer premium: £34.60
Total: £208.25
INCOME:
contribution based ESA: £112.05
Partner's carer's allowance: £62.10
Assessed income for ESA (income-related): £174.15
ESA (INCOME-RELATED) = £208.25 - £174.15 = £34.10

OK - FAIRLY SURE THE ABOVE IS ALL CORRECT, but now for an analysis of version (1) which we are ALREADY supposed to be receiving based on using our current status as the input data:
APPLICABLE AMOUNT:
personal allowance (main phase): £114.85
disability premium: £45.95
enhanced disability premium: £22.60
carer premium: £34.60
Total: £218.00
INCOME:
contribution based ESA: £112.05
Client carer's allowance: £62.10
Assessed income for Income Support: £174.15
INCOME SUPPORT = £218.00 - £174.15 = £43.85

BUT CURRENTLY DWP DOES NOT GIVE US THE ENHANCED DISABILITY PREMIUM INCLUDED IN THIS INCOME SUPPORT RESULT IMMEDIATELY ABOVE, SO SHOULD THEY AS ACCORDING TO THIS CALCULATOR RESULT???

We get that EDP is not supposed to be paid with a (Cont) ESA claim, still in both results the calculator lists the income as "contribution based" BUT DOES make EDP applicable.
SO, here's the question we're considering:
If Income Support is about making an Income-related claim (which has to account for whole household income), then doesn't that also mean that partner's ESA payment can effectively be treated as Income-related too (even though there is an underlying contribution-based entitlement)? By this interpretation then, EDP does become applicable in my Income Support claim (on grounds of partner being in ESA support group), and it's just that DWP haven't been accounting for it properly all this time - who can confirm or challenge this please?

Alternatively we have considered it this way:
Can one be on Cont ESA but entitled to IR ESA though not directly claiming it because partner is instead receiving IS as an income based benefit already (and 2 income-based claims not allowed from same household)? Then if entitled to IR ESA in own right, when partner claims IS on their behalf to achieve an applicable amount, can EDP (by virtue of Support Group) be validly given under the IS claimant? IS THIS WHY THE CALCULATOR 'THINKS' IT IS RIGHT TO ADD THIS PREMIUM ON TO OUR BENEFITS ESTIMATE??

Our conclusion is that the position of Cont or IR ESA, and resulting conditions and premiums due for whatever reasons, makes perfect sense when ESA is considered for a single claimant living on their own. However, when a partner is introduced into the equation there can be a mix of Cont and IR-based eligibilities, but with the ESA claimant also being entitled to BOTH Cont and IR-based benefits in their own right! So how should this combination be treated by DWP?

Really wishing there was a more reliable calculator out there, that someone could recommend for us to use, that properly understands all the ins and outs of ESA?

So, so sorry for the large post, but otherwise it's just all in our heads and driving us CRAZY!!! Not going to add anything further unless someone asks for any extra details we've not already given.

nannytone_2

you cannot get the enhanced disability premium with the way your claim is set up.

it can only be claimed via ESA because your husband gets the support group component. BUT it can only be paid via income related ESA.

as you claim income support, there is no income related ESA being claimed.

ur cannot be claimed via income support as your husband does not receive the correct qualifying benefit ( high rate care DLA ir enhanced rate PIP)

the only way that you can receive the enhanced disability premium is for you to close your income support claim, and for him to add you to his contributions based ESA claim.

he would continue to receive contributions based ESA and would get an income related top up for you.

because he would now be claiming income related ESA as well, the enhanced disability premium would be added