Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Filo25

ukcarper wrote: »

I think it is a mess and it's easy to blame Boris and the Government, but if all MPs who want to remain stopped paying lip service to result of referendum, stopped trying to make us leave in name only and put the country ahead of the party we would have a better chance of getting a acceptable deal.

However having us "leave in name only" would also be respecting the result of the referendum, the referendum said there was majority to formally leave the EU as that was the question asked it didn't say anything whatsoever about the model to replace it.

Many prominent Leavers spoke positively about Norway during the campaign, as soon as the result was for Leave though, apparently the Norway model would be a betrayal.

If anyone wants to check what model of Brexit voters really want (rather than just speculating) the only way would be to ask again in a revised referendum on the subject, but obviously there isn't much political will in the Leave camp for that to happen (not surprising as it would risk the result of a referendum they have already won), still it undermines claims that there is some clear mandate for the government to follow a Hard Brexit strategy and anything else is a betrayal of the British people.

ukcarper

Filo25 wrote: »

However having us "leave in name only" would also be respecting the result of the referendum, the referendum said there was majority to formally leave the EU as that was the question asked it didn't say anything whatsoever about the model to replace it.

Many prominent Leavers spoke positively about Norway during the campaign, as soon as the result was for Leave though, apparently the Norway model would be a betrayal.

If anyone wants to check what model of Brexit voters really want (rather than just speculating) the only way would be to ask again in a revised referendum on the subject, but obviously there isn't much political will in the Leave camp for that to happen (not surprising as it would risk the result of a referendum they have already won), still it undermines claims that there is some clear mandate for the government to follow a Hard Brexit strategy and anything else is a betrayal of the British people.

Unlike me I can see you are a remainer who hasn't accepted the result.

kabayiri

ukcarper wrote: »

I think it is a mess and it's easy to blame Boris and the Government, but if all MPs who want to remain stopped paying lip service to result of referendum, stopped trying to make us leave in name only and put the country ahead of the party we would have a better chance of getting a acceptable deal.

People are clearly putting their own political interests above anything else.

Hey, they have free will and all that, but I think there's a good chance that voters will remember this at the ballot box.

For me, this is a good thing. The sooner we flush out these wishy washy liberals and get people with conviction as MPs the better.

ukcarper

mayonnaise wrote: »

We all have accepted the result. The result being that we leave the EU. Nothing less, nothing more.

Maybe it's time the brextremists start accepting the result. As Filo says, there was never a mandate for hard brexit.

Another one if everybody stop trying to leave in name only and put thier effort behind getting a deal there would be less chance of having a hard brexit. Personally I see both sides the hard brexiters and leave in name only remainers asjust as bad as each other.

Filo25

ukcarper wrote: »

Unlike me I can see you are a remainer who hasn't accepted the result.

You are clearly very good at mind reading, as I have said no such thing.

There was a 52:48 vote to leave the EU so there clearly is a democratic mandate to leave, as far as I am concerned that cannot be ignored by Parliament, the only way to overturn would be through a second referendum, and I do not believe there is any appetite for that in the country at present (there certainly isn't amongst the leadership of the 2 major parties)

Finding a model of departure which gets through parliament and is popular in the country is likely to be difficult though (to put it mildly).

It's not up to me or "Remainers" to find a solution to that though, we never thought there was a solution, that is why we were Remainers in the first place, its up to those who promised the world during the camapign, now its time to deliver on their promises.

For all of our sakes I hope they can, although I have very little reason to be optimistic on what we have seen so far.

In short I have clearly accepted the result of the referendum, but that doesn't include suddenly thinking it was a good idea, because there is precious little to support that view.

The promises of the easy negotiation and "having our cake and eating it" are long gone, now its more a case of taking a load of pain in the short term with the promise of some nebulous future sunny uplands.

Filo25

ukcarper wrote: »

Another one if everybody stop trying to leave in name only and put thier effort behind getting a deal there would be less chance of having a hard brexit. Personally I see both sides the hard brexiters and leave in name only remainers asjust as bad as each other.

What solution do you think we should be working towards?

If the UK can figure out a magical solution to the Irish border problem then options may open up, but that was always going to be a big issue, exacerbated by the current parliamentary arithmetic.

If May wasn't dependent on DUP votes she could probably go for special status on NI and move on, Tories wouldn't be happy on it but would probably live with it as the price to pay for a Canada style deal (they would prefer that to alternatives which would force the rest of the UK to closer cooperation with Europe).

kabayiri

Filo25 wrote: »

....
Finding a model of departure which gets through parliament and is popular in the country is likely to be difficult though (to put it mildly).
...

The easiest political option is to dump the problem on the public again.

We will know if this becomes a reality by the change in language used. There will be some phrase like "people's vote" to make it sound a bit chummy.

On the radio earlier they mentioned 2 options in such a vote : accept the deal or remain. There is a 3rd obviously which is leave without agreeing to the terms. People should be given all 3 to choose from.

Filo25

kabayiri wrote: »

The easiest political option is to dump the problem on the public again.

We will know if this becomes a reality by the change in language used. There will be some phrase like "people's vote" to make it sound a bit chummy.

On the radio earlier they mentioned 2 options in such a vote : accept the deal or remain. There is a 3rd obviously which is leave without agreeing to the terms. People should be given all 3 to choose from.

How would you handle a 3 way vote out of interest?

Single Transferrable vote with people ranking the options in order?

I'm genuinely not sure what the outcome is, the whole thing is becoming a mess, we could even end up with another GE, although I imagine the polls wouldn't make the Tories feel too comfortable with calling one, either.

Still a lot of posturing for domestic consumption, fudging issues and kicking the can down the road as opposed to actually being honest about the options we are facing and that is from both government and opposition.

kabayiri

The A50 process seemed pretty clear to me.

Establish default terms, and try to work towards something better.

Nobody could guarantee if we could negotiate something better than the default, because you can't completely predict the other party.

Graham_Devon

mayonnaise wrote: »

We all have accepted the result. The result being that we leave the EU. Nothing less, nothing more.

Maybe it's time the brextremists start accepting the result. As Filo says, there was never a mandate for hard brexit.

As someone who voted brexit, I have sympathy with this.

We were asked a question, we answered. If we leave in name only, technically, the referendum has been honoured.

However, I do feel politically, it will be a poor show, and could be seen as a stitch up. I don't think it would do wonders for trust in the political system, and reckon UKIP, or similar would have it's profile raised again. Which would be 5 or 10 years wasted really, as we would be back to square one.