Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

gfplux

The (my) world is a more dangerous place today.

I put that down PARTLY to Brexit and Trump.

Posters just denying that the (my) world is NOT a more dangerous place does not reassure me.

Moby

gfplux wrote: »

The (my) world is a more dangerous place today.

I put that down PARTLY to Brexit and Trump.

Posters just denying that the (my) world is NOT a more dangerous place does not reassure me.

Trump is owned by Putin which is cold comfort for us and our great new future bestriding the world as an independent nation again;)

cogito

Moby wrote: »

I remember Harold Wilson and the way the prospect of his Government was described by many people. He was hated by the right as a radical, extreme socialist etc.....the Mail campaigned against him daily. People fall for this guff all the time.

I think your memory is faulty. If Wilson was despised at all, it was because he was as slippery as an eel and couldn't be trusted to speak the truth (pound in your pocket etc). I don't recall any specific campaign against him although he did get plenty of stick for his perceived untrustworthiness but then he was a politician after all.

He was more of a social democrat and certainly not extreme socialist. Yes, he was radical but that came in his approach to modernisation. I doubt that an extreme socialist would have supported Gaitskell over Bevan in the Labour leadership contest as Wilson did.

cogito

Moby wrote: »

Excellent point which the complacent forget. If you've ever had a dispute with management you'll experience some of this again. Good documentary on R4 last night about how this Govmt outsourced contracts to do the maintenance work in prisons and how this has driven down standards. Shocking stuff. You can see our Brexit future and why its the hard right that want it. 'Taking back control' is code for deregulation of working rights and conditions.

The UK isn't the only country in the EU which outsources prison maintenance, you know. Are France and Belgium hard right too?

Enterprise_1701C

Moby wrote: »

Excellent point which the complacent forget. If you've ever had a dispute with management you'll experience some of this again. Good documentary on R4 last night about how this Govmt outsourced contracts to do the maintenance work in prisons and how this has driven down standards. Shocking stuff. You can see our Brexit future and why its the hard right that want it. 'Taking back control' is code for deregulation of working rights and conditions.

As far as I am concerned prison is one of the few things that should return to the 18th century.

There should be one prison of a decent standard where people are kept until their trial.

After they have been found guilty they should be in a prison where standards are not of the holiday village kind. I would halve the sentence (apart from murder and rape) and double the discomfort. Yes, they could have TV, but it would be locked to the news channels. They could have exercise in the yard. They would have to work, no choice as to what to do. There would be no library, no games room, no gym, no free study.

The idea of drugs being flown by drone into prison is ridiculous. Best way to block it? No windows. They would have natural light, there's plenty of ways of doing it without having windows they have direct access to.

If they wanted to study it would be at a cost, they or their relatives would have to pay the whatever thousands it would cost in uni or college.

I have a few other things on my list that would cause severe discomfort to the prisoners. What I would be after is something no-one in their right mind would wish to return to.

Yes, this would mean a massive rebuilding project, but we could use the prisoners to rebuild, there must be numerous tradesmen in prison that we could use. If there is not the right ones then a quick on the job training programme wouldn't hurt, and every stage would be inspected carefully.

I am not saying it would not cost serious money, but it is one of the things I would be willing to spend on, easier than trying to keep track of what goes on within the prisons.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

ukcarper

Moby wrote: »

I remember Harold Wilson and the way the prospect of his Government was described by many people. He was hated by the right as a radical, extreme socialist etc.....the Mail campaigned against him daily. People fall for this guff all the time.

I also remember The Harold Wilson government and would not compare Corbyn's Labour to his. I have been a Labour voter all my life but I could not vote for the present Labour Party not because I don't agree with some of their policies but because they are totally unrealistic.

ukcarper

BobQ wrote: »

I recall similar things, my grandfather telling me that he cycled 20 miles to the docks every day to stand outside the dock office and see if he was one of lucky ones picked for a job.



I agree with what you say but suspect you will not agree with my interpretation. It was people rather than the EU. People who organised collectively to fight for rights through trade unions achieved much change. Women campaigning for the vote and for equal pay. Workers fighting for better health and safety in dangerous industries and for decent pensions

The EU merely harmonised some of these improvements and brought some nations up to the level of the best.

Of course when they had achieved these things they took them for granted and lost the will to do things for themselves and now these things are gradually being taken away from them. I suspect more quickly outside the EU than in. For many self employment is a way of doing this.

People standing up and initiating change is a lost art. Today protest is labelled militancy and people only ever want to look after themselves. One day people will realise that they will continue to lose the modern conditions they take for granted and they will have to work out how to win the battles their great grandfathers fought and won..

I also agree most of the improvements to working conditions were bought about by trade unions and that is why I don't think the EU had that much of an influence. Other improvements are due to many things and would have happened with or without EU and to what extent the EU helped is unknown.

Herzlos

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

As far as I am concerned prison is one of the few things that should return to the 18th century.

Thus missing one of the biggest points of prison - rehabilitation. You want people coming out of prison better suited to the world, with skills that get them into an honest career path and becoming a valuable member of society. If you bung them in a gulag for a few years you've essentially removed them from society, caused resentment and will just produce re-offenders. Books, education, classes, hobbies, are all valuable parts of the rehabilitation process.

Herzlos

Thrugelmir wrote: »

If you've better ideas I'm sure there'll be welcomed. :cool:

I'm not sure. Something more central and rational might be useful. With the Tories and their small government dogma, they clearly follow that and not the common sense approach.

Ideally I'd love an open parliament without the whips, and a Labour/Tory coalition. Everything would have to pass on merit not party lines.

Austerity or in some peoples eyes sensible financial management. Has some way to go. The problems are far from resolved. Politicians only interested in the next election. Not the longer term future.

Austerity to a point is sensible financial management; don't waste money. But the Tories have taken it too far, being penny wise but pound foolish. Cutting services too much doesn't make the problems go away, but just pushes them onto somewhere more expensive. Then there's the balance; we can't afford sufficient care in community staff, but can throw billions on buying votes, high speed rail to nowhere and nuclear weapons.

Take the council maintenance budgets - if sufficiently funded, they can fix things like potholes whilst it's cheap and easy. Since there's an insufficient budget they need to wait until people complain (and seek compensation), where more drastic and expensive fixes are needed.

Care in the community type stuff - if you've got someone who relies on daily visits from a carer, but can't afford the carer, that person now needs to move to somewhere with on-site care. Without the support staff, people end up staying in hospital wards longer. Both options cost far more money than just providing the in-house care staff.

Remember the whole "a stitch in time saves nine" thing? It's completely true and explains how austerity is failing.

And then there's the whole "in this together nonsense", so that no matter how well it's actually doing, it's producing resentment, because the politicians and bankers don't seem to be suffering from the same austerity as everyone else.

Herzlos

LHW99 wrote: »

If you think our austerity measures have been "savage" I suggest you try the ones Greece has been enduring for the past 7 years or so.

Oh I definitely don't want Greek austerity. But because someone else has it worse doesn't mean we don't have it bad.