Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Nor did I realise that 48% of remain voters all wanted the same kind of remain. Did they want a soft remain whereby the staus quo was maintained, a hard remain where the UK became part of a federal state or something in between?

I didn't realise that was part of the question either. But still, with only 2 choices, that'd be about 24% of the votes each. So about double that of any of the leave votes.

Sometimes (most of the time) I completely fail to understand what point you are trying to make. That could be my fault.

Herzlos

gfplux wrote: »

It is nice thought.

If in a few years some Brits wanted to rejoin they would have to recognise that they would have to rejoin under normal terms and join the Euro.
I can not see this as a possibility in under a 20 year timescale.

If the forecasts (from government and experts) are anything like reality, I'd be willing to bet we'd be trying to rejoin within 10 years. Indeed I'll be stunned if there isn't a Govermment petittion to rejoin within 30 seconds of leaving, followed up by a lot of campaigning.

We've almost become the poor man of Europe again already and we haven't even changed anything.

The thing you need to bear in mind is that as soon as we've left, the choice becomes "Whatever Brexit turns out to be" Vs "standard EU", and whichever one is better will win. That "standard EU" is going to be significantly worse than our current membership becomes irrelevant as it's off the table, and "standard EU" stands a real possibility if being significantly worse than "whatever brexit turns out to be".

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

We've almost become the poor man of Europe again already and we haven't even changed anything.

That’s some claim you’ve made there. Any evidence for that or just more hyperbole?

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

I didn't realise that was part of the question either. But still, with only 2 choices, that'd be about 24% of the votes each. So about double that of any of the leave votes.

Sometimes (most of the time) I completely fail to understand what point you are trying to make. That could be my fault.

I'm sorry that it wasn't clear to you but the point I am trying to make is that many people who voted remain had little idea what they were voting for either. My mother in law voted remain but has no idea why.

It seems that you don't really know either. Do you want the kind of EU that we have now or do you want the 'ever closer union' that Juncker, Verhofstadt, Schulz and co bang on about relentlessly? What does 'ever closer union' mean and where does it end?

And when the EU pushes ahead with its grand project, is it even interested in what the people of its member states want? Does it even care?

A vote for remain wasn't a vote for the status quo even if many remain voters think it was. It was a vote for the UK to be dragged further and further into a project that people never voted for.

We agreed to the EEC, rightly so in my opinion. We did not vote for the monster that the EU has become.

cogito

Tromking wrote: »

That’s some claim you’ve made there. Any evidence for that or just more hyperbole?

Haven't you seen the numbers? Bulgarian GDP is growing faster than the UK. What more evidence do you need?

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to equate LD votes with Brexit remorse - people vote for parties for different reasons and LD's took a massive credibility hit with the Tory sell-out.

I agree to some extent especially in council election but thier vote fell by 300,000 in 2017 GE and they were on of the only parties in England to campaign on staying in EU.

Lornapink

phillw wrote: »

I do have a sneering disregard for patriotism,

On your global travels you've never cheered as local cultures celebrated themselves with flags, costume, music, dance, culture, food?


Perhaps a Spanish fiesta or a traditional celebration in Africa or the Pacific?


What emotions would be stirred if you saw a Nigerian dancing down Camden high street wrapped in her flag?
How would they compare if it were a fat white English bloke dancing in his flag?

Lornapink

From a very low base compared to UK that is much further through the economic cycle and recovered far quicker and better than much of the EU.
A growth spurt in Italy, Spain et al from years of hell and massive youth unemployment really is the least you would expect now.

Herzlos

ukcarper wrote: »

I agree to some extent especially in council election but thier vote fell by 300,000 in 2017 GE and they were on of the only parties in England to campaign on staying in EU.

But in what is essentially a 2 party state, a vote for LD is largely wasted unless you're in one of the few seats where LD stand a chance of getting in.

You could use your same logic to claim that since UKIPs vote fell off a cliff, that no-one wants Brexit.

cogito wrote: »

I'm sorry that it wasn't clear to you but the point I am trying to make is that many people who voted remain had little idea what they were voting for either. My mother in law voted remain but has no idea why.

It seems that you don't really know either. Do you want the kind of EU that we have now or do you want the 'ever closer union' that Juncker, Verhofstadt, Schulz and co bang on about relentlessly? What does 'ever closer union' mean and where does it end?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but what's the relevance? You've spent 18 months pointing out that Remain lost. So it doesn't matter what ratio voted for status quo Vs closer union. IMHO the majority would have been happy with the status quo, with very few actively wanting closer union. That wasn't on the ballot paper.

As with everything else, we'd be relying on our representatives to represent what's best with us, and not just blindly pushing on with a catchphrase, or we'd replace them.

In case we're so far down this tangent you can't remember what you were objecting to. I was pointing out that the claim that all 52% of leavers want the same thing (tracy's hard brexit) was clearly false.

Lornapink

..... did not reply to correct post sorry