Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

buglawton

Tromking wrote: »

Perhaps he bases his opinion on something more than anecdotal stories from his French Mrs!

Sister actually but she compares her own and friends treatment in France with what she knows her relatives get in the UK. The near-instant GP appointments and clinical testing, not just sometimes but always, are standouts for the French system.

Yes they do spend more on their system. But UK politicians fear changing our NHS to allow more accountability alongside more ways of funding it.

Enterprise_1701C

Well, we are fortunate enough to have nothing but praise for the NHS.

Going back 27 years ago, all bar 21 days, we lost my mum to cancer. After diagnosis they threw everything at it but she had left it too late to go to the doctors. These days we have so many different tests that can catch cancer early, how many of you sit here and think "but I lost X to cancer" without realising they ignored the invitations to be tested?

About 10 years ago my BiL had a heart attack. He was in hospital being treated (without incidentally being asked for insurance and/or a credit card as he would have been in so many places) successfully and released a couple of weeks later with full instructions for changing his lifestyle.

Going back many years my OH broke his ankle playing rugby whilst in Zambia. Unfortunately they decided to pin it and that pin was infected (still in Zambia). He consequently ended up with osteomyelitis which flared up on a couple of occasions whilst here. On both occasions he was rapidly treated in hospital, the first time entailed a 6 week stay, the second time 2 weeks. It flared up again 6/7 years ago, this time he went to hospital and they could scan it to find out precisely where the infection was. He was then referred to THE ONLY HOSPITAL IN THE WHOLE OF EUROPE (in Oxford) that could perform the operation to remove the infection, and this was done in a 7 hour operation. Again without any requests for money or insurance. Possibly anywhere else in the world he would have lost his foot.

Earlier this year we lost my 83 year old FiL. He had had spinal cancer. They tried to treat it but age was against him and HE decided to stop treatment. The nhs wanted to continue to treat him. In the meantime the fact one of my BiLs lived at home meant he could look after him, the nhs provided everything they needed, including lending a hospital bed and all the equipment spinal cancer requires, a nurse came in every day to check him and do anything necessary. He died at home, surrounded by family, with a smile on his face.

I have nothing but praise for the nhs, it will always be underfunded because you could throw all the money in the world at it and it would use every last penny and ask for more.

We need to make it necessary for non-residents to pay for their treatment, that way we will not have so many people coming over here and checking themselves into hospital straight from the airport.

We also need to sort out is purchasing department, make sure it is getting value for money.

System

Tromking wrote: »

Perhaps he bases his opinion on something more than anecdotal stories from his French Mrs!

Posh thinks NHS service is crap but the outcomes in the French/ EU system are no better. I suspect she's based this on no research whatsoever.

The UK has 2.7 hospital beds per 1000 population; France has 6.2.

The UK has fewer practicing doctors than France.

The UK has 8 CT scanners per million people; 21.4 in the EU.

The UK has 6.1 MRI scanners per million people; 15.4 in the EU.

The UK is 15th out of 19 comparable countries for infant mortality.

The UK runs a first world health service but outcomes in France and Germany, when taken in the round, are better.

IMO a couple of reasons for this (1) people support the NHS like a football team and prefer to put their hands over their ears and close their eyes when dealing with criticism and (2) the almost obsessive desire for the service to be 'free'.

Here's the ONS data on infant mortality. The rate of improvement since 1990 compared to our international peers is a disgrace.

https://visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-drops-in-european-child-mortality-rankings/

Eric_the_half_a_bee

ilovehouses wrote: »

The UK runs a first world health service but outcomes in France and Germany, when taken in the round, are better...

Here's the ONS data on infant mortality. The rate of improvement since 1990 compared to our international peers is a disgrace.

Using your link: Since 1990, the incidence of infant mortality in the UK has fallen by 40%. The comparable figures for France and Germany are 39% and 38%.

Doesn't seem that disgraceful to me.

System

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

We also need to sort out is purchasing department, make sure it is getting value for money.

One area where the NHS outperforms is actually with regard to purchasing. They buy far more cheaper generic versions of drugs than their international peers.

It's good you're happy with the service but the data shows your families outcomes would likely have been better than in Germany and France.

System

Eric_the_half_a_bee wrote: »

Using your link: Since 1990, the incidence of infant mortality in the UK has fallen by 40%. The comparable figures for France and Germany are 39% and 38%.

Doesn't seem that disgraceful to me.

The UK fell from 7th to 19th in the neonatal mortality rankings behind such healthcare big hitters like Lithuania, Slovenia and Estonia.

You want to compare the UK to France and Germany then why not compare directly rather than playing with percentage change since 1990?

UK 2.7 deaths per 1000, Germany 2.1 deaths per thousand, France 2.2 deaths per thousand.

Take the NHS goggles off and stop making excuses.

Herzlos

mailmannz wrote: »

What is this Right "Wing" extremism you are talking about?

If you look at the violence going on in the States you will notice that it is almost exclusively being carried out by groups like Antifa who unsurpringsly are aligned with the left and supported by Democrats.

Can you back that up in any way?

Whitext supremists are regarded as the biggest domestic terror threat by the fbi and intelligence agencies. They are the most likely to perpetrate mass shootings. The antifa movement appeared in response to white supremist intimidation, but it's crazy to think both sides are the same and completely bonkers to portray the right wing extremists as the innocent party unless you read breitbart.

Tromking

The differences in various first world health care systems look quite nuanced to me.

posh*spice

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Well, we are fortunate enough to have nothing but praise for the NHS.

Going back 27 years ago, all bar 21 days, we lost my mum to cancer. After diagnosis they threw everything at it but she had left it too late to go to the doctors. These days we have so many different tests that can catch cancer early, how many of you sit here and think "but I lost X to cancer" without realising they ignored the invitations to be tested?

About 10 years ago my BiL had a heart attack. He was in hospital being treated (without incidentally being asked for insurance and/or a credit card as he would have been in so many places) successfully and released a couple of weeks later with full instructions for changing his lifestyle.

Going back many years my OH broke his ankle playing rugby whilst in Zambia. Unfortunately they decided to pin it and that pin was infected (still in Zambia). He consequently ended up with osteomyelitis which flared up on a couple of occasions whilst here. On both occasions he was rapidly treated in hospital, the first time entailed a 6 week stay, the second time 2 weeks. It flared up again 6/7 years ago, this time he went to hospital and they could scan it to find out precisely where the infection was. He was then referred to THE ONLY HOSPITAL IN THE WHOLE OF EUROPE (in Oxford) that could perform the operation to remove the infection, and this was done in a 7 hour operation. Again without any requests for money or insurance. Possibly anywhere else in the world he would have lost his foot.

Earlier this year we lost my 83 year old FiL. He had had spinal cancer. They tried to treat it but age was against him and HE decided to stop treatment. The nhs wanted to continue to treat him. In the meantime the fact one of my BiLs lived at home meant he could look after him, the nhs provided everything they needed, including lending a hospital bed and all the equipment spinal cancer requires, a nurse came in every day to check him and do anything necessary. He died at home, surrounded by family, with a smile on his face.

I have nothing but praise for the nhs, it will always be underfunded because you could throw all the money in the world at it and it would use every last penny and ask for more.

We need to make it necessary for non-residents to pay for their treatment, that way we will not have so many people coming over here and checking themselves into hospital straight from the airport.

We also need to sort out is purchasing department, make sure it is getting value for money.

You've been lucky and I am glad for you. My father was taken to A and E as he was ill, he was treated and told he had gall stones and sent home. He was having a heart attack. I don't see how that was his fault?

My mother clearly had cancer - she couldn't get passed the GP who treated her for every cheap ailment before passing her to a consultant wasting so much precious time - 20 years ago. How was that her fault?

My FIL was given so many tests in trying to disciver his illness - yet thry missed the most obvious- so he died of a curable disease- that was 26 years ago? How was that his fault?

My MIL got lucky - she had a heart attack- it got diagnosed in good time- she had an op . Thst was 3 years ago. She was lucky.

tracey3596

Is this Brexit thread turning into a healthcare thread now?

Regardless off which reports your personal biases prefer to use the figures on balance appear to point to the UK being at least centrally-placed regarding healthcare within the EU at least.
There is one very important difference in the UK system though.
You don't pay at the point of delivery here.

In France, visiting a GP will cost you over £20 ( €25 ) each time. ALL medicines must be paid for. Hospitalisation will cost you a €18 contribution per day.
Also in France for example if in a medical emergency you need an ambulance a Doctor must agree that you need one before one is dispatched to you - and if one arrives you could find that it's a taxi or even a fire services vehicle.

Yes we pay from our taxes but we do not need to provide pay-as-you-go funding for most of our treatment, and that has always been one of the core principles of the NHS since it's inception.