Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

mayonnaise

mrginge wrote: »

its all very easy to make excuses for online victimisation or to turn it into a little joke, but at the end of the day you refuse to use the ignore factility so that you can continually attack a member for their posting method.

Sincere apologies to anyone I might have upset.
I assumed this was a debating forum as the word 'debate' features in the sub-forum header.
If there's genuine need for pages and pages of pasted links without any comment, original thought, opinion or genuine food for debate, then I'll just have to accept that.
Carry on.

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

They pretty much did and the UK said "nope, not paying that" and has then refused to talk about it. That's what we're stuck on; we haven't provided any kind of counter offer or discussion as to what we should/shouldn't pay.



I don't think it's fair for EU citizens to lose rights just because we voted to lose rights. That said, I don't think they need ECJ coverage to guarantee those rights; dual citizenship/passporting should be enough.



Both sides want as free trade as possible, so that's not strictly the issue.

You do need to know what the deal is regarding movement and standards though. Assuming tariff free trade, if people are allowed to cross freely and standards and taxes are the same on both sides then no border is needed. This is what the EU wants, and is basically EU membership.

If we want to restrict movement or adopt different goods standards then we need some sort of border point.

I don't think it's actually a solvable problem whatever terms we agree on. The only solution is Irish reunification (either all in EU with hard border to UK, or NI becomes UK with hard border at Eire) but I don't think that's achievable without another few decades of bloodshed.

There are too many border crossings to monitor, and no interest from anyone for a hard border anywhere. A soft border would still involve some sort of occasional checks and would be entirely porous, so really not worth the effort of enforcing.

Maybe you could get away with some sort of Israeli style intelligence based border with no checks but surveillance and interception of anyone we're sure is violating whatever terms (i.e. non-EU nationals, goods smugglers) but again, I doubt those that don't want a hard border would be happy being spied on.

An open border would suit everyone apart from those that wanted to stop migrants, because they could just travel in freely via Eire->NI->UK instead of coming over direct from France.

No the EU have said it's X in fact they can't decide what X actually is and the method of reaching X is up for dispute. and said it's X not a penny less.

Wouldn't someone living in UK on a daul passport be under UK law.

The Boarder issue is the hardest to solve in my view and depending on trade deal I would think boarder checks between the island of Ireland and UK mainland would be best solution, how that was implemented would depend on trade deal, I accept that would be difficult to sell to some parts of NIs population.

gfplux

Herzlos wrote: »

They pretty much did and the UK said "nope, not paying that" and has then refused to talk about it. That's what we're stuck on; we haven't provided any kind of counter offer or discussion as to what we should/shouldn't pay.



I don't think it's fair for EU citizens to lose rights just because we voted to lose rights. That said, I don't think they need ECJ coverage to guarantee those rights; dual citizenship/passporting should be enough.



Both sides want as free trade as possible, so that's not strictly the issue.

You do need to know what the deal is regarding movement and standards though. Assuming tariff free trade, if people are allowed to cross freely and standards and taxes are the same on both sides then no border is needed. This is what the EU wants, and is basically EU membership.

If we want to restrict movement or adopt different goods standards then we need some sort of border point.

I don't think it's actually a solvable problem whatever terms we agree on. The only solution is Irish reunification (either all in EU with hard border to UK, or NI becomes UK with hard border at Eire) but I don't think that's achievable without another few decades of bloodshed.

There are too many border crossings to monitor, and no interest from anyone for a hard border anywhere. A soft border would still involve some sort of occasional checks and would be entirely porous, so really not worth the effort of enforcing.

Maybe you could get away with some sort of Israeli style intelligence based border with no checks but surveillance and interception of anyone we're sure is violating whatever terms (i.e. non-EU nationals, goods smugglers) but again, I doubt those that don't want a hard border would be happy being spied on.

An open border would suit everyone apart from those that wanted to stop migrants, because they could just travel in freely via Eire->NI->UK instead of coming over direct from France.

Very good points.
I recall very clearly when negotiations were being planned that everyone agreed the three most key points to settle in the leaving phase. Everyone talked about the financial settlement and citizens rights "could" be agreed and finalised and that the Irish border could be parked and then worked on in detail when talks about trade started.
We now have close to a deal on Citizens rights, the Irish border parked and the whole deal being held up due to money. The amounts involved while enormous are really small beer against the costs (Remainers) or gains (Brexiters). What is really the problem is the British side having their fist fight with each other which has made any amount of money said in public too controversial to be even wispered about.

gfplux

cogito wrote: »

Indeed they do. The EU are so successful in negotiating trade deals that in the several decades of its existence, they have failed to
achieve deals with the likes of the USA, Japan, China, India and Brazil.

They did however trumpet loudly an agreement with Japan but it turned out that it was only an agreement to talk about an agreement. It's already floundering over cheese exports.

If that is the case why have the British side said that agreeing a trade deal with the EU would very very simple and would be finalised very quickly. You can not have it both ways.

setmefree2

I agree with all your post ukcarper but fwiw and fyi do you know that the Irish Police (garda) stops buses every day between NI and Ireland just after the border to check for people without visas? They also very regularly check the train running between Belfast and Dublin.

And mostly they stop non-whites.

Also non-white people are stopped and detained at both Belfast International and Belfast city Airports. Even from the Scotland to Belfast ferries too. The Irish GNIB have had officers at Northern Ireland ports before now, but they're interested only in persons intent on entering Ireland.

So the question is there really an open between NI and Dublin?

gfplux

setmefree2 wrote: »

I agree with all your post ukcarper but fwiw and fyi do you know that the Irish Police (garda) stops buses every day between NI and Ireland just after the border to check for people without visas? They also very regularly check the train running between Belfast and Dublin.

And mostly they stop non-whites.

Also non-white people are stopped and detained at both Belfast International and Belfast city Airports. Even from the Scotland to Belfast ferries too. The Irish GNIB have had officers at Northern Ireland ports before now, but they're interested only in persons intent on entering Ireland.

So the question is there really an open between NI and Dublin?

I thought everyone agreed that that as long as the gunmen think there is an open border no one gets shot.

setmefree2

Gardai man border checkpoints to grab illegals entering from Northern Ireland

Immigration gardai are planning a number of special operations on the border with Northern Ireland after around 50 people were detained during two days of checkpoints last month.

During the two days of last month's operation, gardai diverted traffic on the southbound lanes of the M1 motorway for seven hours on each day, with large checkpoints in place.
Gardai picked up a number of different routes for their checkpoints, including train and bus stations and approximately 15 officers were involved in the operation in the Ravensdale area of Dundalk.

It emerged that some of those detained had been authorised to work in the Republic

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/gardai-man-border-checkpoints-to-grab-illegals-entering-from-northern-ireland-31449642.html

gfplux

The Gunmen, I think we all might agree are racists. While people who are dark skinned are involved they don't care. Or can't find a reason to care.

setmefree2

EU to Prepare for U.K. Trade Deal

• Bloc’s states to start work on areas to be covered by accord
• Preparatory work intended as positive signal for Theresa May

countries are seeking to complete their own preparatory work on a future relationship with the U.K. this year, a move intended to keep hope alive for Theresa May’s government even as Brexit negotiations remain stalled.The Council of the EU, which represents member states, will start working with the European Commission as soon as this month on the key points, according to two EU officials familiar with the matter. The plan is to have a road map ready by December so that trade talks can begin as soon as the EU decides the U.K. has offered enough on the divorce settlement to deserve moving on to trade, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Those internal preparations will include about 15 policy areas regarding the future relationship between the two sides -- from financial services to fishing and anti-dumping, one of the officials said. The work means that once the U.K. gets the green light to talk about trade, negotiations can move more quickly. It took two months of EU consultations for the existing negotiating guidelines for Barnier to be decided.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-17/eu-is-said-to-seek-a-road-map-for-future-u-k-deal-by-december

setmefree2

Interesting article here.

Alexander Downer, the Australian High Commissioner and former foreign minister, told us to cheer up. If Britain genuinely wanted free trade, he said, the deals would be easy: it had taken Australia only 15 months to sign an agreement with the United States, because it hadn't tried to carve exemptions out. "Name a free-trading country that isn't rich or getting rich," he challenged the audience.

And yet, against all apparent reason, free trade continues to be howled down as something exploitative. There has even, Liam Fox told us on the basis of new polling data, been a swing against free trade from some Remain voters who previously backed the idea, but now associate global trade with Brexit.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-has-free-trade-stopped-being-left-wing-cause-1643552