HELP! CEL County Court Business Centre Claim (x2)

[Deleted User]

Usually hotels make you write your room and car registration on a bit of paper at check in. My argument to ParkingEye was that this constituted registration and their sign was ambiguous as to how car details are to be registered (not my problem). That argument of course relies upon you being able to say that and it seems that your recollection is not that clear.

The statement you have says nothing.

(i) You need to insist that CEL provide you with copy signage (the basis of the contract they say they have with the driver);
(ii) a copy of the contract allowing them to operate at that site. Technically speaking, if the Hotel Group have not given them authority to issue court proceedings the claim cannot proceed;
(iii) A complete log of vehicle entry and exits to demonstrate that the ANPR system has correctly captured your car registration (it's not foolproof).

Finally - if you want to take the robust approach you should write to them giving them 7 days to discontinue their duplicate claim or you will apply to strike out (£100) on the basis that it is an abuse of process and seek your costs. Otherwise you can raise the issue in the defence and write to the court and let them strike it out.

plymouth_damo

Johnersh wrote: »

Usually hotels make you write your room and car registration on a bit of paper at check in. My argument to ParkingEye was that this constituted registration and their sign was ambiguous as to how car details are to be registered (not my problem). That argument of course relies upon you being able to say that and it seems that your recollection is not that clear.

The statement you have says nothing.

(i) You need to insist that CEL provide you with copy signage (the basis of the contract they say they have with the driver);
(ii) a copy of the contract allowing them to operate at that site. Technically speaking, if the Hotel Group have not given them authority to issue court proceedings the claim cannot proceed;
(iii) A complete log of vehicle entry and exits to demonstrate that the ANPR system has correctly captured your car registration (it's not foolproof).

Finally - if you want to take the robust approach you should write to them giving them 7 days to discontinue their duplicate claim or you will apply to strike out (£100) on the basis that it is an abuse of process and seek your costs. Otherwise you can raise the issue in the defence and write to the court and let them strike it out.

The hotel in question doesn't get me to sign or write anything, its an IBIS and they have their new check in system where they have people wondering around the lobby with PDA's to check you in, I do not believe they ask for your vehicle registration in this process.

So with regards to the extra information CEL are required to give me (signage, contract and vehicle log)...should I give the same time limit for reply? (7 days) and if they fail to provide this information before the 5th (which is when the defence is due) write in the defence that the claimant has failed to provide the requested information?

I will write a separate letter inviting them to discontinue the duplicate claim. I will send both letters tomorrow...is that enough time for them to respond before the defense is due?

plymouth_damo

Johnersh wrote: »

Usually hotels make you write your room and car registration on a bit of paper at check in. My argument to ParkingEye was that this constituted registration and their sign was ambiguous as to how car details are to be registered (not my problem). That argument of course relies upon you being able to say that and it seems that your recollection is not that clear.

The statement you have says nothing.

(i) You need to insist that CEL provide you with copy signage (the basis of the contract they say they have with the driver);
(ii) a copy of the contract allowing them to operate at that site. Technically speaking, if the Hotel Group have not given them authority to issue court proceedings the claim cannot proceed;
(iii) A complete log of vehicle entry and exits to demonstrate that the ANPR system has correctly captured your car registration (it's not foolproof).

Finally - if you want to take the robust approach you should write to them giving them 7 days to discontinue their duplicate claim or you will apply to strike out (£100) on the basis that it is an abuse of process and seek your costs. Otherwise you can raise the issue in the defence and write to the court and let them strike it out.

Here are the two separate letters I have drafted based on the advice you have given and the templates I could find with regards to the new 1st October Protocol:


Civil Enforcement Limited
Legal Department
Horton House
Exchange Flags
Liverpool
L2 3PF

27th October 2017

PCN Ref: ************
Date of Alleged Incident: *********

Dear Sirs,

I am in receipt of your Particulars of Claim for County Court Business Centre Claim ******** dated ************.

Your letter, and original claim contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your claim places reliance upon.

As you must know on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. As the above County Court Business Centre Claim was submitted after this date, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires you to provide. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

You must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter. As you also must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a your company are sending a consumer a vague and un-evidenced claim in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

Nobody, including yourselves, are immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.


I require you to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents within SEVEN (7) Days:

1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 “establishing yourself as the creditor”
8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form

12. I also require a log of the ANPR system on the date of the alleged incident to prove the ANPR system did in fact correctly record my vehicle registration.


If you do not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) – Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

Until you have complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and consider it entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for you to have issued proceedings at this stage. Should you continue without providing the requested information, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


Yours faithfully


*************



Civil Enforcement Limited
Legal Department
Horton House
Exchange Flags
Liverpool
L2 3PF

27th October 2017

PCN Ref: ************
Date of Alleged Incident: ************

Dear Sirs,

I am in receipt of the above County Court Business Centre Claim ********* dated 3rd of October 2017.

This alleged incident and referenced PCN (***********) is already being claimed for by yourselves under County Court Business Centre Claim ********* issued by yourselves also on 3rd of October 2017.

As such I believe this to be a DUPLICATE CLAIM.

Please take this letter as my formal request for you to discontinue the duplicate claim *********** within the next SEVEN (7) Days. If you fail to do this I will request that the Claim is struck out on the basis that it is an abuse of process and seek costs from yourself.


Yours faithfully


**************

Any changes you would recommend before I send tomorrow?

plymouth_damo

Can I just confirm time scales...so I don’t miss deadlines.

As such with regards to the two duplicate claims:

Claim 1: originally dated 3rd October, I AOS (as at the time that’s what the newbies thread said to do, this advice had now been updated)
I received the FULL particulars of claim (letter was dated 11th October, HOWEVER envelope was dated 23rd October

Claim 2: originally dated 3rd October, no further particulars received

Claim 1: I sent the the letter above requesting all evidence as required by the new October 1st legislation.

Claim 2: sent letter inviting claimant to withdraw claim as it is a duplicate claim and is an abuse of court process.

I have received NO further correspondence from claimant

With regards to claim 2, as far as I see from Johnersh am I to await a response and NOT submit a defense until full particulars are received or wait until claim is withdrawn? (I would struggle to find the £100 to strike at this point)?

Claim 1, do I submit a defense to the new time line set by the full particulars and which date do I use (letter or evenlope) if it’s envelope which am guessing it would be, that would be 23rd+14 days+5 days Service....so that would be submitting before 11th November....if it would be the letter date, that has passed so am guessing the claims original date would apply (which is tommorow 5th)

Or do I submit NO DEFENSE and await a response from the the letter? (Even though the defense deadlines may pass?)

[Deleted User]

Does claim 2 state clearly that Particulars are to follow?

If so, I'd do nothing (other than write to the court and point out that it is a duplicate claim, which has not been particularised and invite the court to strike it out under their case management powers (CPR part 3)). It is an abuse of process.

If the claim form has details of the claim however scant and is not endorsed with "further particulars will be served within 14 days" it should be defended.

Coupon-mad

The NEWBIES thread is now updated to reflect this advice. Let me know Johnersh, if more is needed.

[Deleted User]

Claim 1 you should invite the claimant to apply for relief from sanction and tell them that they are out of time.

In the meantime prepare your defence. Work on the basis you have 14 days maximum, having already acknowledged service.

plymouth_damo

Johnersh wrote: »

Does claim 2 state clearly that Particulars are to follow?

If so, I'd do nothing (other than write to the court and point out that it is a duplicate claim, which has not been particularised and invite the court to strike it out under their case management powers (CPR part 3)). It is an abuse of process.

If the claim form has details of the claim however scant and is not endorsed with "further particulars will be served within 14 days" it should be defended.

It definitely DOES say Full particulars to follow, and I have only had FULL particulars with reference to claim 1(claim number)

So I will write to the court as per your advice.

plymouth_damo

Johnersh wrote: »

Claim 1 you should invite the claimant to apply for relief from sanction and tell them that they are out of time.

In the meantime prepare your defence. Work on the basis you have 14 days maximum, having already acknowledged service.

So write another letter to get them to apply for relief from sanction, how would I word this (is there a template I can use for this or not as this is in relation to the new October 1st process?) what happens if they do not respond?

In the mean time you said max of 14 days for a defense...what is my final defense submission deadline as I am totally lost now which date to go by now

KeithP

plymouth_damo wrote: »

So write another letter to get them to apply for relief from sanction, how would I word this (is there a template I can use for this or not as this is in relation to the new October 1st process?) what happens if they do not respond?

In the mean time you said max of 14 days for a defense...what is my final defense submission deadline as I am totally lost now which date to go by now

Doesn't post #38 have your answers?

And the word is defence.