HELP! CEL County Court Business Centre Claim (x2)

[Deleted User]

what is the process for having it struck out (lets say no further particulars have been received by me OR the court) and the deadline to submit my defence has passed

This starts with an incorrect premise. The time for preparing a defence CANNOT expire if the claimant hasn't presented his pleaded case.

Thus, the claimant cannot get default judgment as it is clear you've not had particulars. The only way that could happen is if you have been genuinely unlucky enough that the particulars were lost in the post.

If it makes you more comfortable by all means write to the court to request a copy of the full Particulars as you have not been served with one. If it has been served, the court will have a copy (the Claimant is required to write to the court with particulars and a certificate of service).

Definitely do not serve a defence to a partial claim. That is the road to ruin and remedies their defect.

You don't need to ask the court to strike out. Right now they are out of time and not permitted to rely on particulars. The claimant needs to apply for the automatic sanction not to be applied (relief). My argument is that the incomplete wording on the claim form is insufficient to found a claim in its own right and was never intended to, thus the claim should not proceed.

plymouth_damo

KeithP wrote: »

In HMCTS leaflet EX303 it says:

The second paragraph there explains when the 14 days starts. I do however understand your concerns.

Thankyou for this, useful to be highlighted so clearly. My fault for not getting that part sooner

When it says not to ‘reply’ does that mean AOS as I have already done this online for both claims, or is that referring to actually submitting a defence?

plymouth_damo

Redx wrote: »

how can this be a correct statement ?

if the 14 days are up today for receiving the POC from the claimant , even under the old system you would still have another 14 days to submit a defence (not 6 days) , PROVIDING you had done the online AOS or returned one of the papers

doing the AOS under the old system doubled the time from 14 days to 28 days

if the claimant has not sent you the POC within the first 14 days , then you would still have another 14 days to submit the defence (under the old system)

from what I can see the new protocols change this because you have a different deadline due to waiting for the POC

if in doubt , PHONE THE CCBC and check when that actual deadline is (how hard can it be to find out ?)

I read your statements and cannot fathom out how its now 14 days that have elapsed so they missed their deadline , yet you say you only have 6 days left ? (14 + 14 = 28 , not 14 + 6 = 20)

your maths is incorrect here somewhere

the fact is that there will be a deadline date for your defence to be submitted, so find out when that is if you are unsure (bear in mind that this is new to all of us due to new protocols coming in 3 weeks ago)

Sorry I was using my self imposed deadline I had given myself to submit the defence (including time to call up to confirm receipt at CCBC) so I was getting myself a bit of confused. The claims were both dated 3rd of October.

I actually wasn’t aware the system had changed so recently either, based on that date what would the new deadline be? (Again this could actuall you be irrelevant it seems anyway if they submit no more POC details but am just trying to get clarity in case I receive them in the next few days

Redx

why do you think I said we may not know due to those new oct 01st protocols ?

why do you think I said "phone the CCBC and find out"

why do you think I said "how hard can it be ?"

there is little point in talking about self imposed deadlines that only mean anything to you

when involving the forum members, you should be talking about ACTUAL deadlines that are court deadlines

if you find out the info you are asking above , REPORT BACK so we all learn

I am not even sure why you think we know , hence why I queried your posts (yet it seems it went over your head somewhat)

somebody has to be the pathfinder, it seems that one of the new pathfinders is you , because you are one of the earliest MCOL cases since oct 01st 2017

you find out and tell us (dont assume we know because nobody has had a training course and you can read the information just as easily as we can - but how it works in practice ?? - come back and tell us what those court deadlines and advice are , so we all learn summat)

I have been waiting for 24 days now to see how those protocols affect people like yourself, I am still waiting for answers to some of the questions you are raising , from people like yourself

ps:- if you hadnt realised there were new protocols brought in 3 days before your court claim, then it seems you are only reading your own thread and none of the other recent threads

BARGEPOLE has posted about these new protocols and gave us all the heads up

Umkomaas has posted 2 links in numerous postings on here this month where he has highlighted this information

if you are only reading your own thread, you have tunnel vision because you are depriving yourself of the greater knowledge in every other oct 2017 thread about these court cases

to give you a further "heads up" , I always link this recent OCT 2017 thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5729157 as being of use to most people because it is easily adapted PLUS it contains the info about the new protocols as well

here is a similar one (4th oct 2017) to yours that has also failed the 14 day POC test

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5731486

[Deleted User]

This isn't an MCOL change, the CPR hasn't changed and time limits haven't changed once proceedings are issued.

This is the claimants responding to the pre action protocol requirements and recognising that they will now have to provide more info from the outset. Thus they are electing to serve manual particulars, which will slow the process a little.

Their claims handlers will be unfamiliar with the process, so mistakes will be made.

The MCOL website has a user guide - read it. The CPR rules are also unambiguous. Those are free online too. Read them. And Chill Winston.

When advising, it is imperative actual dates are given. Once you know the last date for service, by all means prepare documents a day or two early. If you provide wrong dates, you get wrong comments from the forum.

Check if particulars are at court and then report back. I repeat, serve nothing at court that may inadvertently remedy their defect if no particulars have been lodged.

Coupon-mad

Johnersh - if a PPC says 'POC to follow', should the D even do the AOS?

plymouth_damo

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Johnersh - if a PPC says 'POC to follow', should the D even do the AOS?

This would be good to know as in this case I have ALREADY done the online AOS (for both duplicated claims) in order to give me more time to prepare the defence (as advised in the newbies thread)...have I done this in error?

plymouth_damo

Johnersh wrote: »

This isn't an MCOL change, the CPR hasn't changed and time limits haven't changed once proceedings are issued.

This is the claimants responding to the pre action protocol requirements and recognising that they will now have to provide more info from the outset. Thus they are electing to serve manual particulars, which will slow the process a little.

Their claims handlers will be unfamiliar with the process, so mistakes will be made.

The MCOL website has a user guide - read it. The CPR rules are also unambiguous. Those are free online too. Read them. And Chill Winston.

When advising, it is imperative actual dates are given. Once you know the last date for service, by all means prepare documents a day or two early. If you provide wrong dates, you get wrong comments from the forum.

Check if particulars are at court and then report back. I repeat, serve nothing at court that may inadvertently remedy their defect if no particulars have been lodged.

Thankyou for your advise, and it is really appreciated. Am fully aware the mistakes made are mine, and is born out of panic and desperation more then anything else as I am not used to all this process in any way.

I will write to the court and ask if they have the particulars as advised (is it best to do this by e-mail or letter?) and report back, and will NOT submit any partial defense in the mean time. Will the fact I have already done the online AOS cause me any issues now?

plymouth_damo

Redx wrote: »

why do you think I said we may not know due to those new oct 01st protocols ?

why do you think I said "phone the CCBC and find out"

why do you think I said "how hard can it be ?"

there is little point in talking about self imposed deadlines that only mean anything to you

when involving the forum members, you should be talking about ACTUAL deadlines that are court deadlines

if you find out the info you are asking above , REPORT BACK so we all learn

I am not even sure why you think we know , hence why I queried your posts (yet it seems it went over your head somewhat)

somebody has to be the pathfinder, it seems that one of the new pathfinders is you , because you are one of the earliest MCOL cases since oct 01st 2017

you find out and tell us (dont assume we know because nobody has had a training course and you can read the information just as easily as we can - but how it works in practice ?? - come back and tell us what those court deadlines and advice are , so we all learn summat)

I have been waiting for 24 days now to see how those protocols affect people like yourself, I am still waiting for answers to some of the questions you are raising , from people like yourself

ps:- if you hadnt realised there were new protocols brought in 3 days before your court claim, then it seems you are only reading your own thread and none of the other recent threads

BARGEPOLE has posted about these new protocols and gave us all the heads up

Umkomaas has posted 2 links in numerous postings on here this month where he has highlighted this information

if you are only reading your own thread, you have tunnel vision because you are depriving yourself of the greater knowledge in every other oct 2017 thread about these court cases

to give you a further "heads up" , I always link this recent OCT 2017 thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5729157 as being of use to most people because it is easily adapted PLUS it contains the info about the new protocols as well

here is a similar one (4th oct 2017) to yours that has also failed the 14 day POC test

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5731486

I thankyou for your continued patience and while I understand dealing with newbies like myself can be a bit frustrating please understand I am not being purposely belligerent I am simply a bit over whelmed by this whole process, terminology and and while I would love to have the time to look through all existing example cases and other threads, my life simply doesn’t allow for this, hence the questions...so if I am causing repetition I apologise. I would say comments like ‘how hard can it be’ aren’t particularly helpful, even if you are correct.

I will be following Johnersh’s advice moving forward.

Thankyou for taking the time to respond and drawing my attention to the other threads

nosferatu1001

I do not think the AOS will cause you any harm. You have acknowledged service of the fom, and are awaiting the full PoC that were promised

I would perosnally RING the CCBC, not email or letter. You will have to continually try, starting in the morning.