Boiler Efficiency

rlpowell

I have a oldish boiler (a Myson Apollo 50, approx 13 years old) which is working fine but must be near the end of it's life. I am trying to assess whether to change it now. I can find efficiencies etc of current boilers but nothing for my old boiler, neither when new or in it's aged state.

The problem is made more difficult in that I cannot use the modern high efficiency condensing boilers (efficiency circa 90%), and must use a more traditional type, (for the teccies we use a se-duct) The Vaillant Turbomax range at about 80% efficient seem about the best. My question is do any moneysavers have any idea of the current efficiency of my old boiler.

To throw out a working boiler early is wasteful (to me and to the planet) so I need to work out the benefits.

To update or not to update, that is the question.

Cardew

Is there nothing in the SEDBUK tables giving the efficiency of your boiler?

All gas boilers produced now are condensing boilers. Do you mean you can't use a combi boiler?

My boiler is 19 years old and has an efficiency of 65% so I doubt yours would be less.

I have been doing my sums like yourself and concluded that I will not change until I am forced to change.

Another point is that 'old fashioned' boilers have very little major to go wrong with them. Not so modern condensing boilers which are loaded with electronics. I have read several comments by 'experts' that 10 years is the expected life of modern boilers.

So to update or not? - toss a coin is the best method!

Canucklehead

Hi

Cardew is accurate ,as usual, with the 65 % efficiency.(Although it isn't listed on Sedbuk.)

Have any other residents had a new boiler?
You might find someone some where, such as the managing agent, will have a list of approved boilers for your system.

HTH.

Corgi Guy.

rlpowell

Thanks for input. 65% at least gives a starting point. Just for info Cardew is not correct in that all gas boilers are condensing. UK Government rules say all boilers installed must be condensing unless excemption certificate is obtained. Our se-duct cannot live with the cool wet exaust from condensing boilers so we have to get exemption and use one of the small number of non condensing boilers still made (it could be combi or regular, although the flat layout doesn't make combi conversion to be attractive).

One (corgi) plumber does most of the work in the block. I am happy with his work, but he is a hands on practical man, and I get the impression that when a boiler fails and he needs one quickly, he just gets whatever his supplier is pushing at the time. I know he has installed several different makes in the last few years, which is why I am doing my homework to try to get the best, not just what's readily available.

By the way, does anyone have any info on how efficiency drops with age. The high values quoted bu manufacturers and Sedbuk are I'm sure for new equipment in optimised test conditions. The real world may not be as ideal.

Cardew

rlpowell wrote: »

Thanks for input. 65% at least gives a starting point. Just for info Cardew is not correct in that all gas boilers are condensing. UK Government rules say all boilers installed must be condensing unless excemption certificate is obtained. Our se-duct cannot live with the cool wet exaust from condensing boilers so we have to get exemption and use one of the small number of non condensing boilers still made (it could be combi or regular, although the flat layout doesn't make combi conversion to be attractive).

One (corgi) plumber does most of the work in the block. I am happy with his work, but he is a hands on practical man, and I get the impression that when a boiler fails and he needs one quickly, he just gets whatever his supplier is pushing at the time. I know he has installed several different makes in the last few years, which is why I am doing my homework to try to get the best, not just what's readily available.

By the way, does anyone have any info on how efficiency drops with age. The high values quoted bu manufacturers and Sedbuk are I'm sure for new equipment in optimised test conditions. The real world may not be as ideal.

Sorry didn't realise about the exemption certificate.

In that case it probably improves a case for hanging on as long as possible with the old boiler?

I have often wondered if(and by how much) the efficiency of boilers drops off with age. Without sophisticated equipment I doubt if you could ever measure it; and manufacturers are unlikely to volunteer the info if it paints a poor picture!

My subjective feeling is that non-condensing boilers have less to go wrong with them as they are a very simple design However condensing boilers being more complicated, and higher efficiency, might have their performance deteriorate. Anyone know for sure?

plumduff55

Hi, I am relieved to hear you say that non condensing boilers are reliable. I changed from a coal back boiler to a Baxi gas back boiler system about 4 years ago and I am exceptionally pleased with the efficiency and running costs. I was quite perturbed to hear that these boilers are no longer being installed.

I am in a terraced house and the only walls suitable for siting a boiler are in the bedrooms - not keen on this at all (hence the choice of a back boiler).

I therefore hope this boiler will last forever !!!!

I know it's far into the future (hopefully), but would this problem of where to site the boiler qualify me for an exemption certificate?

Many thanks

Canucklehead

plumduff55 wrote: »

Hi, I am relieved to hear you say that non condensing boilers are reliable. I changed from a coal back boiler to a Baxi gas back boiler system about 4 years ago and I am exceptionally pleased with the efficiency and running costs. I was quite perturbed to hear that these boilers are no longer being installed.

I am in a terraced house and the only walls suitable for siting a boiler are in the bedrooms - not keen on this at all (hence the choice of a back boiler).

I therefore hope this boiler will last forever !!!!

I know it's far into the future (hopefully), but would this problem of where to site the boiler qualify me for an exemption certificate?

Many thanks

Good evening: See Appendix A of the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide for info on the assessment for exemption process... http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf

NB Under this procedure very few exemptions are achieved. Just noticed...you are in Scotland ...this assessment is for England and Wales only.

HTH

Canucklehead

Cardew

Canucklehead,

Do you have any opinions(subjective or objective)/views/facts on the reliability long term of condensing boilers versus the older non-condensing versions?

I have heard some horror stories about their reliability. Indeed an article in the Daily Telegraph concluded that 10 years might be the design life of the latest boilers.

Canucklehead

Cardew wrote: »

Canucklehead,

Do you have any opinions(subjective or objective)/views/facts on the reliability long term of condensing boilers versus the older non-condensing versions?

I have heard some horror stories about their reliability. Indeed an article in the Daily Telegraph concluded that 10 years might be the design life of the latest boilers.

Good morning: If the condensing boiler has been installed according to manufacturer's instructions, the CORGI follows best practice as recommended in http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/uploads/documents/housingbuildings/ce30.pdf

and the appliance has an annual service then problems should be minimal. Most of my OH's service calls relate to poorly installed/maintained non-condensing boilers..minimal number of condensing models (again, poor installation ansd maintenance). As part of his ongoing professional development he attends manufacturer's training sessions for new products/technology, and tracks the boiler faults reported on various forums, trade magazines etc. ...not all CORGIs are as well trained/experienced or conscientious... money as opposed to providing excellent customer service has become end game for some.
Re: Telegraph article (Indy and Guardian in our house;) ) could you put a link so I could have a gander...couldn't find a recent article when I searched the paper's website.

Manufacturers and large installation/service companies eg. BG maintain records of all boiler faults but don't share these with the public or the trades.:think: ..would make interesting reading. Condensing technology has been around for over 20 years...UK has lagged behind the rest of Europe in developing/adopting the technology....much steeper learning curve for the consumer and the installer?

A final thought...new cars utilize complex technology...are they less reliable than older vehicles or just more difficult/expensive for the DIYer to repair?

HTH

Canucklehead

Canucklehead

Canucklehead wrote: »

Good morning: If the condensing boiler has been installed according to manufacturer's instructions, the CORGI follows best practice as recommended in http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/uploads/documents/housingbuildings/ce30.pdf

and the appliance has an annual service then problems should be minimal. Most of my OH's service calls relate to poorly installed/maintained non-condensing boilers..minimal number of condensing models (again, poor installation ansd maintenance). As part of his ongoing professional development he attends manufacturer's training sessions for new products/technology, and tracks the boiler faults reported on various forums, trade magazines etc. ...not all CORGIs are as well trained/experienced or conscientious... money as opposed to providing excellent customer service has become end game for some.
Re: Telegraph article (Indy and Guardian in our house;) ) could you put a link so I could have a gander...couldn't find a recent article when I searched the paper's website.

Manufacturers and large installation/service companies eg. BG maintain records of all boiler faults but don't share these with the public or the trades.:think: ..would make interesting reading. Condensing technology has been around for over 20 years...UK has lagged behind the rest of Europe in developing/adopting the technology....much steeper learning curve for the consumer and the installer?

A final thought...new cars utilize complex technology...are they less reliable than older vehicles or just more difficult/expensive for the DIYer to repair?

HTH

Canucklehead

Cardew: I've answered your question... any thoughts/comments?

Canucklehead

plumduff55

Thanks Canucklehead for the info. I have read the section on exemptions and saved the document for future info. I will see if there is a Scottish equivalent. Thanks again.