Advice on house extension please

Mish_Mash

Hi all

I am looking for some help and advice regarding a planned kitchen extension. It's all new to me and I am a bit shocked about the costs I am being quoted. Also need a bit of a steer re next step options.

So background to my project is as follows:
- I live in a 2 up, 2 down edwardian house in a zone 4 north London borough (it's not a posh part in any shape or form).
- The house is small, has a walk through dining room and a 3x3 metre kitchen at the back.
- I have lived there for 10 years and am finding the space restrictive and the lack of visual access to the garden is something I would like to address.
- I have reviewed options, confirmed planned layout and worked with an architect to obtain a certificate of lawfulness from the council so initial formalities have been completed.
- The planned extension will involve extending the existing kitchen back by another 3 metres (so 3X3) creating a space 6x3 metres. I will also add a side return of 1.2x3. So approx 12.6 metres additional meterage.
- I am now looking to move onto the steel calculations (structural engineer) and technical design for building quotes.

I had originally started out hoping that I could complete the build for 50k. My architect felt this was optimistic. I had resigned myself to an 80k all in full and final figure but am now concerned that this is also 'optimistic'. I have spoken to the estate agents in my area and they have confirmed that the extension will add approx 40k to my house price (so I will lose money). They advised doing a loft extension as that would add more value however it won't benefit my quality of life.

The following list details what I am being quoted.

- Approved buildings inspector: £1800 inc VAT
- Structural engineer : £4k inc VAT pus 1k for 2x site visits (I cried a bit when I read this).
- Party wall surveyor: £150 to service detailed party wall notices to the neighbours and £850 to compete a survey per neighbour if required. (cost is per neighbour) I have been told by my architect that I should do this properly as we are taking the whole of the back wall out of the property.
- 2.5k for remaining architects work i.e. technical design, buildings regs submissions
- Approx 50k for the build of the extension. I will provide an addition (up to 30k) for the kitchen (which will be on one wall no island) and for some nice glass, garden landscaping and furniture.

Are these quotes OTT? Would I be better off with a full service building company rather than getting the architect to progress the structural piece etc before we engage with the builders? I am not sure I trust 'in house' builders.

Any advice would really be appreciated as I am in all honestly thinking of throwing the towel in at this stage. Someone somewhere must think money grows on trees.

Also appreciate I could move out of London but I grew up here and my elderly parents are local and getting doddery (another reason for the extension).

Aylesbury_Duck

I'll leave the more knowledgable people to comment on the plans and estimates themselves but just looking at your figures, can you move locally? If your plans come out at, say, £90k and they add £40k to your house price, is there a more suitable house you could buy? Even with the costs of moving, stamp duty, legal fees, etc. you'd seem to be better off and not have to live in a building site for months to boot.

A house price difference of £50k plus fees would still leave you over £20k better off than extending your current house.

Warwick_Hunt

What's you structural engineer doing for 4 grand?

Furts

Extensions represent expensive building. Small volumes of work, no economies of scale on labour or materials, the addition of VAT and so on.

It is a fact that countless millions of extensions will not have been viable if viewed from a commercial perspective. So you have to decide what your objectives are. If it is simply to gain more space then so be it.

However the concept of building two tiddly extensions in an area of high labour, professional and material costs needs careful thought. In general I would say your proposals are crazy, but fine if you have the skills to by pass the professional costs and to build on a DIY basis.

Mish_Mash

Yes I did look at moving locally but houses that have larger downstairs areas are generally bigger houses (3 bedrooms) and I would be looking at 175k to 250k to move (thats without fees/stamp duty etc).

All of the other houses that are similar to mine have had small extensions done ( so 3x3m off of the existing back kitchen). Very few have had the side return done. Those that have (i have popped in to see a few) have accepted the cost because they also can't afford to move and know they are in it for the long haul.

It's very frustrating.

Also, my house, is really nice with original fireplaces, floorboards, well maintained with a lovely garden. It also has a drive which no one else does. So a sideways move is not on the cards - I have been looking for a year.

For the 4k (plus 1k for site visits), the engineer will undertake the design of the side extension (structure, foundation and flat roof), design calculations for the rear wall steels and internal structural changes (removal of chimney), load assessments, application to thames water, buildings control drawings and provide details for builders tenders. They charge £100 per hour plus VAT. So total of 34 hours. I had allowed for 2-3k

Mish_Mash

Agree it's madness. But in context of the general housing market madness, it's really the only option. I refuse to take on an extra 200k mortgage to stay in or near the area. The lesser evil is the extension at 80k.

I've weighed up the pro's and con's and it makes sense in terms of value add for me. I currently can't have more than 3 people around as you can't swing a cat downstairs. This makes entertaining my ever growing extended family a real challenge and often means I spend vast amounts of time visiting other people instead of spending time in my own home. I'd like to be able to live in my house.

Interestingly, the neighbours that I have spoken to that have embarked on similar extensions have no regrets (it does really change the space in the house), and they have been through the same process as myself in terms of weighing up pro's and con's or moving. Ultimately they opted to stay because to move would mean a much larger mortgage and also there just weren't the properties. They also love the area, which I do too. It's a rare find in London, a really nice street where all the neighbours interact and very safe for children.

My real focus is qualifying whether the costs to do the 'preliminaries' such as building calculations are realistic or top end?

Furts

Regarding your "preliminaries" what choice do you have? Be realistic here. You already have an architect on board so to fire that person would mean starting again, with further costs.

With the structural engineer, the hourly rate sounds reasonable, but you can go back and say this all sounds too much and suggest a lower overall fee, or you could seek a cheaper engineer.

Really you are focusing on the wrong areas. You should be trying to drive down the build costs for this is where the excessive money is being sought. If you, or family, or friends, or contacts got involved you would be surprised at what can be built for not too much money.

dawyldthing

Could you move your kitchen to the lounge and lounge to the kitchen if it's set up 2 rooms and a kitchen? Or bring part of the kitchen into a lounge diner? Would save you loads

Lacuna

I should budget a tad more on the Party Wall Surveyor front. £75 per notice is realistic. Bear in mind though that the number of notices to be served depends on whether you are building tight to a boundary or against an existing party wall or raising a party fence wall etc. Maybe allow £300? You can serve them yourself (the Government helpfully provides pro-forma documents on-line) but you need to make sure you understand what you are doing as a wrongly completed notice is invalid. Maybe your architect can help. You also need to make sure that your neighbours are 'owners' as defined in section 20 of the Party Wall etc. Act and all relevant owners are served. No problem if both sides are owner/occupier freeholders. More complex if not.

Party Wall Surveyors can only be appointed once a dispute has arisen from the notice you serve. You can avoid all surveyors fees by getting written consent from each adjoining owner to works under sections 2 and 6 of the Act. Building a new wall against an unbuilt on boundary (section 1(5)) does not require next door's consent. The answer is to talk to your neighbour's well in advance. Tell them what you are doing and explain you would like their consent to the relevant notices.

Even if you get someone to serve the notices for you (they will be acting as your agent and not as a party wall surveyor at that stage) you can still try and negotiate consent of your own accord. Some party wall surveyors won't bother to try because they will get a higher fee if there is a dispute.

Be wary also of your neighbours being approached by firms of surveyors who will grossly misrepresent the situation and get themselves signed up, sometimes even before you have served notice. They won't be party wall surveyors at that stage but will intimate that they are. Many of theses surveyors will also look for a fee in the region of £1,500 per owner, chargeable to you (in addition to your surveyor's fee). Some create difficulties and look to charge more still. If you get on with your neighbours and discuss things early on, they can be warned off accepting such approaches.

It can be a dog eat dog world out there as far as party wall matters are concerned and there are some rogues about. If taking professional advice it will likely be suggested that you have a schedule of condition prepared of the relevant parts of next door's properties. That is best practice.

Just be careful not to get carried along on a gravy train.

cddc

It has got to the stage with the insane London property market and the crippling amount of Stamp duty that you have to pay to move house because of the crazy house prices, that as expensive as extensions are, if you want the space, they are far cheaper than moving house. So whilst they might not make commercial sense in terms of adding value to the property, if you are intending to stay in the area long term and want the space, they are cheaper than moving.

That quote sounds about right to be fair. As others say, beware of Party Wall sharks causing you ridiculous extra costs though.

sooty&sweep

Hi
We needed a structural engineer & the quote we got from the firm recommended by my architect was thousands.
We shopped around & found a semi retired structural engineer who did what we needed for less than £500.
He didn't use the fancy packages but he supplied the architect with what he needed & a lot more cheaply.
So shop around, have a chat with the building regs guys at your local council & find out who else is around. They won't be able to give you a recommendation though.

Jen