Land Registry questions

Land_Registry

Spazter wrote: »

Thank you ever so much for this in-depth reply especially on a weekend! This puts my mind at rest but I will still be phoning the solicitors and land registry on Monday to ensure this is removed. I’m glad I have the alerts set up on my deeds but it was a tad worrying seeing this on my alert but glad to hear there are steps that prevent anyone going any further with applications against deeds.

Thank you again for looking into this on a weekend it’s really appreciated

Spazter - the application has been cancelled against the title quoted and captured against the correct title now. As suggested the applicant transposed two digits on submission.

There is no application against your title number now

Land_Registry

G_M wrote: »

I applied (form OC2) for a document mentioned in a property Title - Charges Register:
"NOTE: Copy plan to conveyance filed under MX264855."

I received a letter back (your ref: NGL120528/OC/167/KJ) from LR stating:" HM Land Registry does not normally retain a copy of a deed when information from that deed is set out in the register."

However the wording in the register is meaningless without reference to the Plan.

Does the LR not retain the Plan?If not, why not, and if so, why was it not sent?

I assume they took it as an application for a copy of the Deed itself, rather than the plan, hence the response given

The plan is not filed electronically so we would need to check whether it is in our paper records.
I can see the record of your application so I'll ask the processing office to double-check and write to you to confirm.

Nik_Carpenter

Hi,

I am new on here. A quick question, myself and my husband own two houses next door to each other that are mortgage free, and are separated into four flats, 2 in each, they were bought in auction but are both on one deed. Water and gas go into two separate houses, so not linked in any other way. Can the two houses on one deed be split? is it expensive? and what else would be involved as we intend to sell one of them in the future. They were built 1909 and were owned by the crown at some point and used a government office and then as doctor and nurses flats. They have been in flats for the past 20 years. We bought the houses with no planning position that was freehold in two flats, can we also sell it as a house?

Ben_W

Hi there,
My dad purchased his new house 2 weeks ago today. He has not yet received any paperwork from his solicitor (copy of title deeds or something from the land registry etc) confirming he now owns the new property.

I did a quick 3 quid land registry search and the house is still registered against the previous owners.

In general, how long does it take for the land registry to be updated and what kind of paperwork should my dad expect to receive and when? I assume its a copy of the digitised land registry record showing him as the new owner when it finally get updated?

Thanks,

Ben

Spazter

Land_Registry wrote: »

Spazter - the application has been cancelled against the title quoted and captured against the correct title now. As suggested the applicant transposed two digits on submission.

There is no application against your title number now

Thank you ever so much for sorting this. Especially as you were completing on a weekend. I did ring the solicitors and they were going to look into it but you will have sorted before they get there.

Can’t thank you enough for clearing this for me 😃

Land_Registry

Nik_Carpenter wrote: »

Hi,

I am new on here. A quick question, myself and my husband own two houses next door to each other that are mortgage free, and are separated into four flats, 2 in each, they were bought in auction but are both on one deed. Water and gas go into two separate houses, so not linked in any other way. Can the two houses on one deed be split? is it expensive? and what else would be involved as we intend to sell one of them in the future. They were built 1909 and were owned by the crown at some point and used a government office and then as doctor and nurses flats. They have been in flats for the past 20 years. We bought the houses with no planning position that was freehold in two flats, can we also sell it as a house?

We won't currently 'split' a title until such time as it is necessary from a registration perspective, for example when you sell part of it as you intend to do. Or the site is being redeveloped such as the houses knocked down and six new ones built which will then all be sold

Separate water/gas and the history of the property and it's use are irrelevant from a registration perspective.

I don't understand the final question though re We bought the houses with no planning position that was freehold in two flats, can we also sell it as a house? - if that relates to use for example then that would be one for your local authority to answer/comment on or anyone else on the forum of course

Land_Registry

Ben_W wrote: »

Hi there,
My dad purchased his new house 2 weeks ago today. He has not yet received any paperwork from his solicitor (copy of title deeds or something from the land registry etc) confirming he now owns the new property.

I did a quick 3 quid land registry search and the house is still registered against the previous owners.

In general, how long does it take for the land registry to be updated and what kind of paperwork should my dad expect to receive and when? I assume its a copy of the digitised land registry record showing him as the new owner when it finally get updated?

Thanks,

Ben

Once you complete the conveyancer normally has a few things to sort before they submit their application to register. Timescales will vary in each case but it's normally 2/3 weeks after everything has gone through and often well after you have moved in for example.

Once we have the application the average timescale is 9 working days. That's the time between receipt and consideration so IF all ok at that point it's registered and the conveyancer gets confirmation and a copy of the register. They will often then let you know and provide you with a copy

So I suspect you have a few weeks to wait still but I'd suggest simply checking with the conveyancer to confirm that once registered they will let your Dad know

babyblade41

Land_Registry wrote: »

I believe we have helped you via both your Facebook and our own online forum posts.
As explained on the forum a survey is invariably required when land is claimed as whilst you and the seller may be happy with the reality on the ground we are required to 'take a look too'. We use OS surveyors to carry that out for us and as also explained on our forum the survey we require is 'different' to the one OS may have done for their own mapping purposes previously.

To put it in simple terms we get 'a claim' that states that 'it's been fenced that way for the last 20 years.......' so we need to check. I'm sure it's not the case here but I have experienced claims where the survey reports 'a nice new fence is in place' so hopefully you can appreciate the need.

As we rely on OS to carry out the survey we make the request and explain the urgency. They aim to do it asap and usually within a week but we quote two to manage expectations. But timescales will vary as we have hundreds of surveys in play and one to two thousand expedited applications being processed at any given time.

As far as the registration is concerned, and as you are aware, the original first registration excluded part of the garden as the title deeds did not, in our view, confirm ownership. The excluded land is sizeable.

It seems from your comments that the solicitors involved felt that the deeds proved title and the sale/purchase proceeded on that basis. Is that correct? What was the timeline re the original first registration and your completion?

Whilst we do our best to assist buyers in such cases we must take account of who actually submitted the application and on whose behalf when providing either specific or general details re it's progress. We can certainly advise on the registration process and general requirements but it's for your solicitor and the sellers' solicitor to explain the specifics and to manage your expectations re the timings around exchanging contracts/completing and so on.

The sellers' solicitor will be aware of the need for a survey also and they/the seller will be notified by letter that a survey is needed. The surveyor will arrange the site visit so if you need to know when that is please rely on the seller

You are also aware via our forum that after the survey, if it backs up the claim, we may have to contact adjoining registered property owners as a further check. That will involve a further delay if those checks are required.

I do appreciate how stressful this can be and the impact your husband's health is having also. If the seller's' solicitor believes we have erred in advice previously given or how we have handled their applications then they should raise them with us to investigate and respond to. Issues around the timing of exchange/completion woukd be dealt with by the solicitors involved

I hope things now move forward as expeditiously as possible for all concerned

Thank you, you must think I'm a stalker. and sorry for not responding as I thought no one had answered

When I spoke to my solicitor yesterday she was told the last document needed to prove ownership had become available when the statement of truth was sent in . Which is why when told a site visit was necessary we were all perplexed.

What we don't understand is that the house was submitted for registration and went through in a few days with exactly the same information as what is available now , the error was from the vendors solicitor who could see after she investigated what she had done

She was told to do an amendment by LR but then they decided it had to go to adverse possession
.
The Properties adjacent to this one bought the land off our vendor some years back (they belong to the same people) and they were registered correctly. So its not really a case of our vendor taking land as she'd sold two pieces off which we were aware of .

I don't understand how those transactions could be registered if the land they bought was in contention as it is now .

I'm just trying to understand the system and how it works one way and sometimes another .

I have had a great help from Adam on the LR forum and understand I can only be told so much , but as we have had to accept a site visit is planned it does seem strange that no one not even our seller is allowed to know when the site visit goes ahead . It adds so much pressure to an already stressful situation plus the costs incurred for all of us. Adam did explain things but I still couldn't understand (Those of a certain age have difficulty sometimes !!)
Our buyer has to vacate her property Friday and is in a horrid situation

The solicitors involved couldn't understand why the first registration went straight through with the information held at LR and although the vendors solicitor did make a mistake the scrutiny is different as the house is on the same piece of land and unless you split a garden pond in half equates to the same address especially when an OS map shows the correct boundary .
I also understand that everyone else is dealing with just maps and written information but the house was registered straight away.

I hope I'm not jeopordising the process with my constant asking of questions , but I have no one to talk this whole situation through . My husband just wants to get home and as he has a dreadful health condition I'm trying to shoulder as much of the stress as possible . I suppose it's my way of having to do something to help all involved

I also hope it can help others as you all have been helpful and respond really quickly I just need to understand certain processes involved . Thank you for your time again...and apologies too for being a pest

Land_Registry

babyblade41 wrote: »

Thank you, you must think I'm a stalker. and sorry for not responding as I thought no one had answered

When I spoke to my solicitor yesterday she was told the last document needed to prove ownership had become available when the statement of truth was sent in . Which is why when told a site visit was necessary we were all perplexed.

What we don't understand is that the house was submitted for registration and went through in a few days with exactly the same information as what is available now , the error was from the vendors solicitor who could see after she investigated what she had done

She was told to do an amendment by LR but then they decided it had to go to adverse possession
.
The Properties adjacent to this one bought the land off our vendor some years back (they belong to the same people) and they were registered correctly. So its not really a case of our vendor taking land as she'd sold two pieces off which we were aware of .

I don't understand how those transactions could be registered if the land they bought was in contention as it is now .

I'm just trying to understand the system and how it works one way and sometimes another .

I have had a great help from Adam on the LR forum and understand I can only be told so much , but as we have had to accept a site visit is planned it does seem strange that no one not even our seller is allowed to know when the site visit goes ahead . It adds so much pressure to an already stressful situation plus the costs incurred for all of us. Adam did explain things but I still couldn't understand (Those of a certain age have difficulty sometimes !!)
Our buyer has to vacate her property Friday and is in a horrid situation

The solicitors involved couldn't understand why the first registration went straight through with the information held at LR and although the vendors solicitor did make a mistake the scrutiny is different as the house is on the same piece of land and unless you split a garden pond in half equates to the same address especially when an OS map shows the correct boundary .
I also understand that everyone else is dealing with just maps and written information but the house was registered straight away.

I hope I'm not jeopordising the process with my constant asking of questions , but I have no one to talk this whole situation through . My husband just wants to get home and as he has a dreadful health condition I'm trying to shoulder as much of the stress as possible . I suppose it's my way of having to do something to help all involved

I also hope it can help others as you all have been helpful and respond really quickly I just need to understand certain processes involved . Thank you for your time again...and apologies too for being a pest

We don't see customers as stalkers and do understand, something which has never changed over the decades, that selling/buying a home can be stressful for a whole list of reasons. And in your case those reasons are heightened due to your husband's health issues.

Clearly the solicitor has had conversations with us around the situation but I won;t have seen those or have been a party to them. All I can add is that a statement of truth does what it says in it's title, namely it's a statement of truth (facts) as provided by a specific individual. It does not prove ownership on it's own but it is an essential starting point where actual title deeds do not exist. Title deeds are the proof of title normally associated with land.property.

A site visit is invariably needed to be 'our eyes on the ground' to check and confirm that the 'truth' is supported

As you state the property was registered for the first time recently and we expedited that process. The solicitor submitted the original title deeds/documents to confirm ownership of the extent then registered.

However the land in question was excluded and that was explained to the solicitor. You state that it 'went through in a few days with exactly the same information as what is available now' - that's not strictly true as the new application includes the statement of truth as that is required to try and fill the gap found in the original title deeds previously submitted

I suspect, but do not know, that the original advice to apply for an amendment was incorrect as it seems clear that the original exclusion of the land was explained so next steps would then be the 'claim' route which would require a statement of truth and formal application to register that claim.

The history of the land/property is relevant re the conveyancing process and can impact on the registration process as well. But it's only part of each process so every situation must be treated on merit and that includes any assessment of the risks involved, be that when you complete on a purchase or we look to register land for the first time without the original deeds to prove title.

The system with any first registration based on a statement of truth is
1. Is the statement sufficient to merit registration
2. If it is then a survey is normally required as explained previously
3. And if the survey supports the application then checks with neighbouring landowners may be required

Every application is treated on merit. In this case the excluded land from the original registration is now being registered based on the statement of truth. As such steps 2 and 3 invariably follow. At this stage you know step 2 is happening but not when. Step 3 may or may not follow

The survey/site visit is for our purposes only. Providing the site is 'open' and the surveyor can access the site there is no need to advise any other parties as to when that survey will be done.

The key here is that the surveyor has a very specific remit re surveying the site. There is a danger/temptation for owners/involved parties to engage with the surveyor in some way. And whilst I am not suggesting that would happen here some may seek to try and influence the surveyor in some way as they do not understand the surveyor's very specific role here. They are not for example considering the registration itself or statement of truth.

Clearly the manner in which this sale/purchase has been handled has created a sequence of events which have caused your buyer to vacate her property on top of your own issues. Whilst I understand that this can happen and the problems it causes they are in my experience initially linked to the conveyancing process and the timing of completion for example.

They can impact on the 'speed' we deal with an application but they won't directly impact on the legal/registration requirements or indeed steps 2 and 3 mentioned above as often they are reliant on other and time-sensitive in their own way e.g. step 2 and the survey allows OS 2 weeks to complete the survey (normally done in 1) and step 3 can be up 3 weeks depending on responses etc

Your 'pestering' does not jeopardise the registration process. In some cases regular contact can impact as it can take our people away from the registration process itself. This is perhaps more acute nowadays with the conveyancing process being more 'open', social media and comms channels developing and so on.
As a result you can now get comms from both solicitors, the seller and buyer and those in a chain when perhaps in the distant past only the solicitor who submitted the application would be in touch.

Times have though changed enormously but the registration process and steps 1, 2 and 3 as mentioned remain largely unchanged as there are legal and registration requirements as explained.

So, you are not a pest and you have not hindered the registration process. We appreciate that those involved will want to be informed and able to understand the process. BUT I would always add that it is your solicitor you must rely on here in all regards as it is their legal and conveyancing advice you will be relying on and they are the ones who advise on when you should exchange/complete and move for example.

We'll look out for you on our forum as well and hopefully everything will be completed as quickly as possible as previously explained.

Finally, please do bear in mind that using multiple contact channels can lead to different information/questions being raised with us. As I often state on this forum the devil is always in the detail so 'different' information/questions may elicit different responses as a result and could potentially add to any confusion, uncertainty or stress. I mention that merely to highlight the point and not to suggest that you have done that to date

babyblade41

Thank you for that in-depth reply, I will keep quiet and just have to wait and appreciate all your help . My solicitor is great but it's the vendors solicitor we seem to await ages for a response so another reason for going crazy .

I'll cease from being aa pain and once again thank you