Any advice pls - renting in London and notice periods...

MonSaveHelp

Hi, welcome any advice about my renting situation...

Have been renting a 1 bed for the last 8yrs from a London Company (they own lots of residential and commercial property all over London).

The current 1yrs AST is going to up for renewal in late August and they want us to sign up for a new 1 yrs AST.

At the moment we are on a 2m notice either way and they would extend the AST on this basis. I understand however, that a standard periodic tenancy is 1m notice for the tenant and 2m for the Landlord.

I have asked the company to provide a 1m notice period for us moving forward and they are unwilling to do so.

I assume if the current AST runs out - it will automatically go periodic?

I also head something has changed to prevent them serving section 21s in advance of the AST ending??

Due to the location, I think it may be easy for them to find another tenant for the property - but on the other hand I am hearing that renting in Central London is becoming more difficult for Landlords.

I assume they will need to give 2m notice if they want to end the current tenancy and if it rolls into a periodic tenancy that will still be the case?

Can anyone provide any advice on the best way to negotiate a 1m tenant notice period with a big Landlord?

I don't want to get kicked out as they can threaten to re-market the property for new tenants - but I don't want to pay for 2m notice should I lose my job and need to move on quickly.

Absolutely welcome any questions or suggestions?

MonSaveHelp

I guess I could ask for 6weeks notice either way from them? Would be a compromise? But unsure if I should be holding my ground? Anyone know how best to negotiate with a large powerful London Landlord?

The old AST's 1yr agreements would normally have section 21 notice signed with it at the start - which means you cannot go periodic. I thought something had changed in the law? - and this is no longer allowed? If this is the case, I assume I would periodic tenancy by default?

Welcome any views as have to make a shout over the next days.

Am useless at negotiating and never know how much clout I have versus the other party?

Pixie5740

What happens at the end of the fixed term will depend on what your tenancy agreement says will happen, if it says anything at all about it. You would automatically start a Contractual Periodic Tenancy or a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.

Read G_M's guide to Ending & Renewing an AST for further information.

G_M

MonSaveHelp wrote: »

The current 1yrs AST is going to up for renewal in late August and they want us to sign up for a new 1 yrs AST.
Your options are
* agree
* negotiate different terms and agree
* leave (no notice neeeded)
* do nothing, stay and moce to a periodic tenancy

At the moment we are on a 2m notice either way and they would extend the AST on this basis.
Do you mean this is the terms of a Break Clause in the tenancy agreeement?

I understand however, that a standard periodic tenancy is 1[STRIKE]m [/STRIKE]tenancy period's notice for the tenant and 2m for the Landlord.
Statutory Periodic Tenancy. Yes.

But if your tenancy agreement specifies a Contractual Periodic Tenancy will follow the fixed term, then notice watever the contract specifies

I have asked the company to provide a 1m notice period for us moving forward and they are unwilling to do so.
Check your tenancy agreement to see if a SPT or CPT will follow.

I assume if the current AST runs out - it will automatically go periodic?
Yes. Either SPT or CPT

I also head something has changed to prevent them serving section 21s in advance of the AST ending??
No. But it cannot be served in the 1st 4 months.

I assume they will need to give 2m notice if they want to end the current tenancy and if it rolls into a periodic tenancy that will still be the case?
Yes. A S21 Notice expiring 2 months later.

1st step is to check your current contract. Will a SPT or CPT follow the fixed term. See

* Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

MonSaveHelp

G_M wrote: »

1st step is to check your current contract. Will a SPT or CPT follow the fixed term. See * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

Thanks so much for the response.

Checked through the current 1year AST which will end on 27-Aug-2017 and it does not say anything about a Contractual Periodic Tenancy and thus I assume Statutory Periodic Tenancy is defaulted.

In that AST it does say...

"Break Clause
7.1 It is further mutually agreed that the Tenant shall have the right to terminate the Tenancy Agreement by the giving of two calendar months notice in writing to the Landlord of their intention so to do the tenancy thus determining upon the expiration of such notice but without prejudice to the rights of either party. Please note, this notice must be given on the rent due date and the expiry date should not fall on either a Sunday or a bank holiday.

7.2 It is further mutually agreed that the Landlord shall have the right to terminate the Tenancy Agreement by the giving of two calendar months notice in writing to the Tenant of their intention so to do the tenancy thus determining upon the expiration of such notice but without prejudice to the rights of either party. Please note, this notice must be given on the rent due date and the expiry date should 'not fall on either a Sunday or a bank holiday."

The new AST from 27-Aug-2017 to 26-Aug 2018 has the same statement.

Therefore the LL does not want to go into a Statuary Periodic Notice and is thus requesting a new 1yr fixed term with 2m notice either way.

The LL is now threatening to re-market the property if we do not sign up to these terms.


Questions....

-I guess we can vacat on the 27-Aug 2017 at the end of the current fixed term?

-If we pay rent on that day (or before) - would we will be on a Standard Periodic 1m (tenancy period notice) with 2m required from the LL (i.e. we do not "have" to leave at the end of the AST)?

-I assume the LL will then have to re-market the property, find new tenants and issue a 2m section 21 notice for us to leave?

-If this is the case - I am unsure if I should call the LL's bluff and see if they actually do it? We have been there for 8 yrs and always paid rent on time - so unsure if I should stick to my guns??

-The key fact is to make sure no section 21 notice has been provided by the LL for the end of the AST - without this - the contract would automatically go to SPT?

Any facts I have incorrect in the above or pointers would be appreciated?

G_M

MonSaveHelp wrote: »

Thanks so much for the response.

Checked through the current 1year AST which will end on 27-Aug-2017 and it does not say anything about a Contractual Periodic Tenancy and thus I assume Statutory Periodic Tenancy is defaulted.
Does it say anything about what happens when the fixed term ends? It may not explicitly use the words 'Contractual Periodic Tenancy'.

But if not, you are right - SPT.

In that AST it does say...

"Break Clause
7.1 It is further mutually agreed that the Tenant shall have the right to terminate the Tenancy Agreement by the giving of two calendar months notice in writing to the Landlord of their intention so to do the tenancy thus determining upon the expiration of such notice but without prejudice to the rights of either party. Please note, this notice must be given on the rent due date and the expiry date should not fall on either a Sunday or a bank holiday.

7.2 It is further mutually agreed that the Landlord shall have the right to terminate the Tenancy Agreement by the giving of two calendar months notice in writing to the Tenant of their intention so to do the tenancy thus determining upon the expiration of such notice but without prejudice to the rights of either party. Please note, this notice must be given on the rent due date and the expiry date should 'not fall on either a Sunday or a bank holiday."

so this applies to use of the Break Clause during the fixed term. Nothing to do with notice periods in any subsequent periodic tenancy.

The new AST from 27-Aug-2017 to 26-Aug 2018 has the same statement.

Therefore the LL does not want to go into a Statuary Periodic Notice and is thus requesting a new 1yr fixed term with 2m notice either way.

1 year fixed term with 2 month Break Clause. Interesting the BC does not specify a minimum period - usually a BC cannor be activated in the 1st 6 months, but hey ho!

The LL is now threatening to re-market the property if we do not sign up to these terms.

Has he served you a S21 Notice? If not, he cannot apply to court for pssession until 26th Sept at the earliest - assuming he serves a S21 tmorrow 26/7/17

Questions....

-I guess we can vacat on the 27-Aug 2017 at the end of the current fixed term? Yes. No notice needed

-If we pay rent on that day (or before) - would we will be on a Standard Periodic 1m (tenancy period notice) with 2m required from the LL (i.e. we do not "have" to leave at the end of the AST)?
whether you pay rent on that day, or go into rent arrears, makes no dfference. If you do not vacate then you will move to a SPT.

Notice is then as you say.

-I assume the LL will then have to re-market the property, find new tenants and issue a 2m section 21 notice for us to leave?
Yes - if the LL wishes you to leave he'll have to
* serve a S21
* wait 2 months
* apply to court
* wait for court date
* obtain possession order
* appoint bailiffs
* await bailiff date
* obtain possession
* prepare prperty for market
* markeet property
* find and vet new tenants

(unless you leave before that entire process has completed. Note if you stay the entire time you may have to pay court/bailiff costs

-If this is the case - I am unsure if I should call the LL's bluff and see if they actually do it? We have been there for 8 yrs and always paid rent on time - so unsure if I should stick to my guns??
It's a judgement call.
what is your objection to the new contract? The 2 month notice period because you think you might wantt to leave duing the coming year?

-The key fact is to make sure no section 21 notice has been provided by the LL for the end of the AST - without this - the contract would automatically go to SPT?
Well - have you you have you not been served a S21?

Any facts I have incorrect in the above or pointers would be appreciated?

......................................................................................

MonSaveHelp

G_M wrote: »

Does it say anything about what happens when the fixed term ends? It may not explicitly use the words 'Contractual Periodic Tenancy'. But if not, you are right - SPT.

Will check again (its a long document). Pretty sure it dosen't speak to after the fixed term.

G_M wrote: »

1 year fixed term with 2 month Break Clause. Interesting the BC does not specify a minimum period - usually a BC cannot be activated in the 1st 6 months, but hey ho!

Yep, this is as requested, we needed a Break Clause from the get-go.

G_M wrote: »

Has he served you a S21 Notice? If not, he cannot apply to court for possession until 26th Sept at the earliest - assuming he serves a S21 tomorrow 26/7/17

Just discovered from my partner today that a section 21 notice was provided for this AST tenancy period a while ago.

So I assume that we will have to leave at the end of current AST unless the new AST including the 2m notice period either way is signed?


...having said that - looking through Ending/renewing an AST it states:

"A S21 is invalid if:
a) served before/at the same time as the tenancy starts
b) served before deposit has been registered & the deposit's ‘Prescribed Information’ given to the tenant
c) incorrect dates/notice period
d) expiry date is within 1st 6 months of original tenancy
e) For tenancies starting from 1/10/15:
- served in 1st 4 months
- new tenancy Prescribed Information was not supplied (EPC, gas report, "how to rent), or
- council has served a repairing enforcement notice on the landlord, following a complaint by a tenant. See Enforcing repairs"


If the s21 was provided in the 1st 4months, then it would be invalid?

Else we will have to agree to the 2m either way AST in order to stay?

G_M wrote: »

It's a judgement call. What is your objection to the new contract? The 2 month notice period because you think you might want to leave during the coming year?

Just wanted a periodic tenancy with 1m (rental period) notice for us, should the work situation change and we had to leave London.

The LL is large with 200+ properties, so I assume they have all bases covered in this instance?

G_M

Re the validity of the S21:

* exact date your current tenancy started please
* exact date the S21 was served

(I assume the other criteria - deposit protection etc) was satisfied?)

MonSaveHelp

Well, if the Landlord is unwilling provide a 1m tenancy notice period to me, I wonder what else I should ask for as part of the new agreement?

...I could trying a compromise of six weeks notice and see if the LL agrees (unlikely considering they have me by the short and curlies)?

...or perhaps get some kind of assurance form the LL that if we had to leave - the flat would be marketed immediately at the current or market rent (whichever is less)?

Else I fear 2m notice would mean there would be no rush by the LL to re-let the property and I would responsible for the 2months.

Is there anything else that anyone else has asked for as a compromise in these situations?

MonSaveHelp

G_M wrote: »

Re the validity of the S21:
* exact date your current tenancy started please
* exact date the S21 was served
(I assume the other criteria - deposit protection etc) was satisfied?)

Thanks.

AST Start - checked the AST and exact start date is 29-Aug-2016

S21 - my partner recalls receiving it but does not know when it was served or can find the paperwork at the moment?? (crap) I can have another dig around.

TDS - Seems to be in order and included with the AST.


I assume you was checking to ensure S21 was 4m after 29-Aug-2016 to be valid?

G_M

G_M wrote: »

Re the validity of the S21:

* exact date your current tenancy started please
* exact date the S21 was served

(I assume the other criteria - deposit protection etc) was satisfied?)

:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: