Penalty fares - appeal or not to appeal?

LCFC_Foxile

Hi fellow Moneysavers,

I had an incident with a 'Revenue Collection Inspector' of South West Trains, as told here :

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=563117&highlight=penalty+fares

Still feeling somewhat pee'd off regarding the penalty fare considering the situation I encountered at Staines station, so I was wondering if any of you chaps have managed to successfully claim back your penalty fare? Or at least been refunded a sum less than what you actually owed as your fare?

Whilst I feel that SWT were in the wrong, considering I had allowed a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket, do they simply reply to your claim pointing to the fact that no-one should get on one of their trains without a ticket, or do they actually take each letter on its merit?

Or am I simply wasting my efforts in putting together a letter which will result in a 'standard' reply?

Cheers,

Mistryman

Iamthesmartestmanalive

Mistryman wrote: »

Hi fellow Moneysavers,

I had an incident with a 'Revenue Collection Inspector' of South West Trains, as told here :

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=563117&highlight=penalty+fares

Still feeling somewhat pee'd off regarding the penalty fare considering the situation I encountered at Staines station, so I was wondering if any of you chaps have managed to successfully claim back your penalty fare? Or at least been refunded a sum less than what you actually owed as your fare?

Whilst I feel that SWT were in the wrong, considering I had allowed a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket, do they simply reply to your claim pointing to the fact that no-one should get on one of their trains without a ticket, or do they actually take each letter on its merit?

Or am I simply wasting my efforts in putting together a letter which will result in a 'standard' reply?

Cheers,

Mistryman

Appeal what?

You travelled without the ticket, you were guilty as charged

Your reasons wouldnt get you off, you also had the option to buy in advance or use automated machines however through your own situation you didnt you therefore are expected to turn up in enough time to get your ticket

You never regardless if you think you did

If the equipment had been faulty or such you would have a claim but it wasnt

LCFC_Foxile

Thanks for your reply 'Iamthesmartestmanalive',

In reply...

I think you may not have read my account in full.

1. I could not purchase a ticket in advance, because it was not until the day itself that I was aware that I needed to be in Staines. And before you ask how I travelled from Datchet to Staines in the first place, I was dropped off by car.

2. I was unable to purchase a ticket from the machine, due to the queue that was also present there. As you will see from my account, I arrived 7 to 8 minutes prior to my train departing, at the station - time which most people would think is sufficient at a (usually) non-busy time of the day.

As already mentioned, I was 2 persons behind the person being served at the manned-window, & the person I was originally behind in the machine queue was still making her purchase when the train pulled-in.

Just to clear up all possibilities, having observed the speed of the queues during my 7-8 minute total wait, I would have been behind the person who was being served at the manned-window had I joined that queue first, when the train pulled-into the station.

From the information I have gathered in the meantime, it appears that the permit machines have been removed from most if not all stations - therefore leaving the passenger at the mercy of the available options to buy a ticket (which as I've experienced even time-willing, are not always sufficient) or to own a crystal ball, in order to predict my journeys & therefore enable me to buy a ticket in advance.

Unfortunately, I don't own a crystal ball & doubt the benefits of owning one either.

So, over to you 'Iamthesmartestmanalive' - regardless of circumstances, what would you consider to be a reasonable time to get to a station to buy a ticket? 10 minutes? 20 minutes?

I'm stretching the theory, but by your reckoning, you are saying that I should wait as long as it takes. Sorry, but I think you'll find that stretches the patience of even the most honest person.

I'm not usually a sceptic, but even I can see what SWT are doing here. The worse thing is that they can afford to take a draconian-way of doing things, because they know that people who travel on their trains don't have an alternative in most cases.

tubechallenger

Although you are guilty as charged - I recommend you do appeal. SWT failed to provide facilities ample to provide your ticket.

If anything - say the RPI was aggressive - they normally are.

nickmack

Mistryman wrote: »

I had an incident with a 'Revenue Collection Inspector' of South West Trains, as told here :

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=563117&highlight=penalty+fares

Not sure why you started another thread on this?

If you feel sufficiently aggrieved the waiting times forced you to board the train without a ticket, by all means appeal. I don't like your chances, but I'd be interested to hear their response.

FannyHill

I once got a parking ticket years ago for £12. I refused to pay it and gave my reasons so they took me to court and fined me £50.

Mind you they let me pay it off at £5 a week.


The next one I got after that I paid.

Let's face it no one likes fines but what can you bring to the table to make them cancel it ?
I'm sure they get lorryloads of pleading letters every week because "almost" everyone feels they've been treated harshly.
We are surrounded everywhere by signs telling us what is prohibited and how we will be fined or prosecuted if we break their rules.

LCFC_Foxile

Thanks for all your replies.

nickmack - in reply to your note, the reason why I started another thread on this, is because my original post was in relation to what happened, & my most recent was in regard to appeals specifically.

As I said originally, this is the first time I'd ever boarded a train without a ticket, so the experience of being penalty-charged is a new one to me. Therefore, I was simply seeking some idea regarding other folk's experiences if & when they appealed.

So if, as it seems, the effort of an appeal by me simply means SWT sticking to their guns, then it's not worth the effort at all.

I appreciate they probably do get many appeals, but nevertheless, it's quite a sad-state of affairs really, when you are penalised even when you have made a decent effort (as I did) of trying to buy a ticket on the day.

Iamthesmartestmanalive

Mistryman wrote: »

Thanks for your reply 'Iamthesmartestmanalive',

In reply...

I think you may not have read my account in full.

1. I could not purchase a ticket in advance, because it was not until the day itself that I was aware that I needed to be in Staines. And before you ask how I travelled from Datchet to Staines in the first place, I was dropped off by car.

2. I was unable to purchase a ticket from the machine, due to the queue that was also present there. As you will see from my account, I arrived 7 to 8 minutes prior to my train departing, at the station - time which most people would think is sufficient at a (usually) non-busy time of the day.

As already mentioned, I was 2 persons behind the person being served at the manned-window, & the person I was originally behind in the machine queue was still making her purchase when the train pulled-in.

Just to clear up all possibilities, having observed the speed of the queues during my 7-8 minute total wait, I would have been behind the person who was being served at the manned-window had I joined that queue first, when the train pulled-into the station.

From the information I have gathered in the meantime, it appears that the permit machines have been removed from most if not all stations - therefore leaving the passenger at the mercy of the available options to buy a ticket (which as I've experienced even time-willing, are not always sufficient) or to own a crystal ball, in order to predict my journeys & therefore enable me to buy a ticket in advance.

Unfortunately, I don't own a crystal ball & doubt the benefits of owning one either.

So, over to you 'Iamthesmartestmanalive' - regardless of circumstances, what would you consider to be a reasonable time to get to a station to buy a ticket? 10 minutes? 20 minutes?

I'm stretching the theory, but by your reckoning, you are saying that I should wait as long as it takes. Sorry, but I think you'll find that stretches the patience of even the most honest person.

I'm not usually a sceptic, but even I can see what SWT are doing here. The worse thing is that they can afford to take a draconian-way of doing things, because they know that people who travel on their trains don't have an alternative in most cases.

Sorry but I did read your post
You travelled on the train, its your responsibility to get a ticket for that, be that arriving really early etc etc

You didnt get their early enough then chose to board without a ticket

The fact is you are responsible for ensuring you have a ticket, not the company, if its busy you need to get their earlier.

You made a educated decision to board rather than wait

Frankly if you were in such a rush to get to your son as you claimed why did you leave it so late ( and 5ish before arrival imo is pushing it) to arrive at the station? What if traffic had been busy, what if there hadnt been any spaces, what if the ticket stations were busy?

Personally I always arrive at my station at least 10 minutes in advance, and we live at a quiet station were even in peak its relativly quiet

If Im attending one of the major ones I ensure at least 20 minutes and normally go about 30 mins early

I personally dont think 7-8 minutes is long enough to guarentee being served and boarding the train therefore your arguments are invalid in my eyes

You took a gamble in arriving so close to departure, if you really wanted to guarentee everything was OK you'd have been there at least 10 minutes earlier than you were

As for your appeal, it will get rejected as ill bet every person caught makes the same claim (oh ticket office busy/closed etc etc)

LCFC_Foxile

Reply to 'Iamthesmartestmanalive' :

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you have very few obligations (work, personal, whatever) in your life, which means you have as much time on your hands to get to stations 10/20/30 minutes ahead of your train.

Time management is one thing; draconian measures that tar everybody with the same brush & which tip the balance of responsibility significantly away from the company that provides a service to the consumer (passenger) is another.

You say that :

"Personally I always arrive at my station at least 10 minutes in advance, and we live at a quiet station were even in peak its relativly quiet"

In reply, I would say that even 10 minutes in my case would have been insufficient.

I would go as far as saying that if you undertook a straw poll amongst regular SWT passengers travelling into London from the 'smaller' stations, you would get very few people saying that they get to their station more than 10 minutes ahead of their train, at the less-busier times of the day.

Perhaps you work for a train company as one of these inspectors? If so, (& even if you don't), perhaps you could explain why the permit-to-travel machines have been removed from many (if not all) stations, & why the ticket machines are programmed to charge higher prices than those offered by the manned-office? This is certainly the case with Datchet station (my local station).

It's hard not to be suspicious of SWT's motives when you take the above into account.

gazza975526570

I cant see why they would waiver the charge - the stipulation is you must buy a ticket before you travel.

Everyone could claim they waited 10 minutes and had no choice but to get on the train. Even if yours was a worthy excuse (of which i dont personally feel it is) then how could they know you are telling the truth?

If you where queing in a supermarket and there where long queues and you had to be somewhere else you couldnt just walk out with your shopping. You would need to decide was it more important to leave your shopping and get where you needed to or stand and wait with the rest of us. Awfull analogy i know but you get my point!!!

Pay the fine and put it down to experience

LCFC_Foxile

Queuing in a supertmarket & queuing for a rail ticket are 2 different things.

In my experience, supermarkets monitor & manage queue lengths - from what I've gathered recently (& it's been a real eye-opener for someone who has never boarded a train without a ticket before), I'm amazed at the lengths that train companies are prepared to go in order to make it that much more difficult in order to buy a ticket.

You may feel that my excuse is not a worthy one (you are entitled to your opinion), & you are right - SWT most probably wouldn't either, which is the reason why I'm not going to waste my time putting together a letter.