Work capability assessment, I scored 0 points.

Iwanttobefree

GlasweJen wrote: »

Why on earth would you list a bunch of activities you can't do on your CV? If the job centre see you doing that you could end up sanctioned for intentionally messing up job applications.

You disclose disability either when you've had a job offer or on occupational health forms that aren't seen by interviewers.

I didn't mean put them on my CV.

Iwanttobefree

Just got my letter stopping my ESA.

Makes interesting reading.

Most is correct, but there's a few things that aren't.

Some of their comments are simply wrong:

He did not appear to have any difficulty using a step to get on and off the couch.

I really struggled and the assessor told me to take it easy, there's no hurry, going up isn't too bad, I really really struggled going down.

Sits in the evening for an hour or two and often plays scrabble with his wife

I do enjoy a game of scrabble, but it's been years since I've played and I have no idea where this comes from at all.

Can use a mobile phone for chatting, texting and keeping in touch with others

I don't recall being asked about my mobile. My contacts consist of son, daughter, wife, one friend, my doctors and my vets. While I don't have any problems using it, I never give my mobile out as I hate using it and any number thats not one of the above, never gets answered. Just find it odd they imply we had a chat about it.

If we did and I simply don't remember, all I would have said is my son and daughter phone me up every day

He has been walking his dog for about 10 mins most days until he injured his arm. He would walk along and have specific points he would stop and lean on a post for a minute or two before walking again

Almost correct, except I have points where I have to sit down for at least two mins, not lean.

The HCP noted that Mr xxx has an Abdominal problem, He had a hiatus hernia which was repaired 5 years ago, there are no ongoing symptoms from this.

Nausea daily, worse when sitting facing certain positions, problems swallowing certain foods, pain/numbness in right side of chest. not that this effects my ability to work, just annoying when I explain everything and they say I have no further problems with it.

His left arm was in a sling which he declined to remove however right arm function was nomal

I had just broken my left arm, I had the letter from the fracture clinic with my next appointment. She said to me "you don't have to keep it in the sling all the time though do you?"

I said "The surgeon told me to keep it in it all the time until I next see him, but if I'm sitting on a chair, can take it out and rest it on the chair arm"

She responded "well you'd better keep it in the sling then"

Not a major thing, but the way she's worded it implies that she asked me to remove my arm from the sling and I refused.

He has Chronic fatigue Syndrome. He says he had this for many years however following a hernia repair 5 years ago he reports he no longer has any of the symptoms relating to his Chronic Fatigue. He is not having any medical input or treatment for this and has stated he was completely asymptomatic

Totally untrue, I said I no longer have any symptoms of the tiredness.

I pointed out that I still have short term memory problems and I cant handle the slightest bit of stress without getting instantly exhausted.

Would stop and speak to someone when walking his dog

Couldn't be more wrong. I will cross the road whether I'm with my dog or not if someones coming the other way as I hate talking to people I don't know.

There's one old man that's always in his garden and tries to chat with me, if I see him there, I will go a different way rather than talk to him.

Even doing something like phoning up for a takeaway, I get my wife to do it as I hate talking to people I don't know.

There's a few people (probably 6) that are good friends and I would talk to, anyone else and I avoid like the plague.

We even had a long chat about this. She said that maybe it's just what I'm like and I prefer to be alone etc, I responded that I never used to be like this, in the past I would talk to anyone

The HCP observed Mr xxx has depression. He takes medication as prescribed and sees his GP irregularly. Despite his stated symptoms he appears to be managing all aspects of personal and social activity relating to his health for the majority of the time as evidenced in the typical day. He got a lift to the city today and came into the examination room with his wife. He interacted well with good eye contact and rapport. Mental state examination largely normal.

We had a talk about my depression, I said as I've always said since the day I was first diagnosed with it that I don't think I'm depressed, I am just frustrated. She said "maybe the medication is working", I said "I've always said this"

What I will say is there's two reasons I don't answer the phone at home at all, two reasons we bought an answer phone that's permanently on (all calls go directly too it.)

One is if its a customer for my wife (mobile hairdresser) too often when I come off the phone, I've forgotten the persons name completely.

The other is I find answering the phone to strangers really stressful and avoid it like I avoid talking to strangers when out and about.

I don't know whether this is linked to depression or my cfs/me, what I do know is that in the past at these assessments, they have said this (and what I described above bout crossing over rather than having to talk to someone) are signs of depression.

The thing is, I had time to prepare for this meeting, I have time to prepare for the meeting on Thursday at the job centre. Just because I can look someone in the eye and appear to have no problem talking to them, doesn't mean I'm actually having no problem

Even when the person phoned me up to tell me I had scored zero points and asked if I would be appealing (only answered it as it said "Private Caller" and my hospital usually says that), I thought whats the point and I still am feeling very very down and stressed out over it 4 days later.

To the point that after the phone call, I quit my diet, started drinking again (got !!!!ed Fri, sat and sun) and am currently thinking about life in general (not feeling suicidal) "why bother" and am really struggling to get it together to write to my creditors to reschedule my dmp.

Can shower, clean teeth, shave and wash hair by using a raised seat despite arm problems and back problems

Well I was asked if I could do that normally when I don't have a broken arm, hence arm problems wouldn't come into it, and the answer is yes. But I have no idea where the raised chair came from

And finally, the person writing the letter who phoned me up, states

I contacted Mr xxx by phone on 16/06/17 .......He confirmed that there had not been any changes in his medical conditions since the assessment.

I said I had been sent for a full spine MRI as the knee surgeon is convinced my back problems caused my knee to give way, and me break my elbow. And my GP is awaiting the result.

And that it will keep happening if it's not sorted, and that he said if needed, I need to be referred to a spinal surgeon

OK none of these things will effect my ESA entitlement, just venting a little as it annoys me when I take the time fully explain my problems and they don't get recorded that way.

Stop_Watch

Iwanttobefree wrote: »

Just got my letter stopping my ESA.

Makes interesting reading.

Most is correct, but there's a few things that aren't.

Some of their comments are simply wrong:



I really struggled and the assessor told me to take it easy, there's no hurry, going up isn't too bad, I really really struggled going down.



I do enjoy a game of scrabble, but it's been years since I've played and I have no idea where this comes from at all.



I don't recall being asked about my mobile. My contacts consist of son, daughter, wife, one friend, my doctors and my vets. While I don't have any problems using it, I never give my mobile out as I hate using it and any number thats not one of the above, never gets answered. Just find it odd they imply we had a chat about it.

If we did and I simply don't remember, all I would have said is my son and daughter phone me up every day


Almost correct, except I have points where I have to sit down for at least two mins, not lean.



Nausea daily, worse when sitting facing certain positions, problems swallowing certain foods, pain/numbness in right side of chest. not that this effects my ability to work, just annoying when I explain everything and they say I have no further problems with it.



I had just broken my left arm, I had the letter from the fracture clinic with my next appointment. She said to me "you don't have to keep it in the sling all the time though do you?"

I said "The surgeon told me to keep it in it all the time until I next see him, but if I'm sitting on a chair, can take it out and rest it on the chair arm"

She responded "well you'd better keep it in the sling then"

Not a major thing, but the way she's worded it implies that she asked me to remove my arm from the sling and I refused.



Totally untrue, I said I no longer have any symptoms of the tiredness.

I pointed out that I still have short term memory problems and I cant handle the slightest bit of stress without getting instantly exhausted.



Couldn't be more wrong. I will cross the road whether I'm with my dog or not if someones coming the other way as I hate talking to people I don't know.

There's one old man that's always in his garden and tries to chat with me, if I see him there, I will go a different way rather than talk to him.

Even doing something like phoning up for a takeaway, I get my wife to do it as I hate talking to people I don't know.

There's a few people (probably 6) that are good friends and I would talk to, anyone else and I avoid like the plague.

We even had a long chat about this. She said that maybe it's just what I'm like and I prefer to be alone etc, I responded that I never used to be like this, in the past I would talk to anyone



We had a talk about my depression, I said as I've always said since the day I was first diagnosed with it that I don't think I'm depressed, I am just frustrated. She said "maybe the medication is working", I said "I've always said this"

What I will say is there's two reasons I don't answer the phone at home at all, two reasons we bought an answer phone that's permanently on (all calls go directly too it.)

One is if its a customer for my wife (mobile hairdresser) too often when I come off the phone, I've forgotten the persons name completely.

The other is I find answering the phone to strangers really stressful and avoid it like I avoid talking to strangers when out and about.

I don't know whether this is linked to depression or my cfs/me, what I do know is that in the past at these assessments, they have said this (and what I described above bout crossing over rather than having to talk to someone) are signs of depression.

The thing is, I had time to prepare for this meeting, I have time to prepare for the meeting on Thursday at the job centre. Just because I can look someone in the eye and appear to have no problem talking to them, doesn't mean I'm actually having no problem

Even when the person phoned me up to tell me I had scored zero points and asked if I would be appealing (only answered it as it said "Private Caller" and my hospital usually says that), I thought whats the point and I still am feeling very very down and stressed out over it 4 days later.

To the point that after the phone call, I quit my diet, started drinking again (got !!!!ed Fri, sat and sun) and am currently thinking about life in general (not feeling suicidal) "why bother" and am really struggling to get it together to write to my creditors to reschedule my dmp.




Well I was asked if I could do that normally when I don't have a broken arm, hence arm problems wouldn't come into it, and the answer is yes. But I have no idea where the raised chair came from

And finally, the person writing the letter who phoned me up, states



I said I had been sent for a full spine MRI as the knee surgeon is convinced my back problems caused my knee to give way, and me break my elbow. And my GP is awaiting the result.

And that it will keep happening if it's not sorted, and that he said if needed, I need to be referred to a spinal surgeon

OK none of these things will effect my ESA entitlement, just venting a little as it annoys me when I take the time fully explain my problems and they don't get recorded that way.

I have got some handy links for you:
https://www.totaljobs.com
http://www.jobsite.co.uk/
https://www.reed.co.uk/
https://www.indeed.co.uk/

Add them to your bookmarks.

Iwanttobefree

Stop_Watch wrote: »

I have got some handy links for you:
https://www.totaljobs.com
http://www.jobsite.co.uk/
https://www.reed.co.uk/
https://www.indeed.co.uk/

Add them to your bookmarks.

Many thanks but I've already been going through all those and a few others too.

I will find something soon hopefully

Muttleythefrog

Iwanttobefree wrote: »

Many thanks but I've already been going through all those and a few others too.

I will find something soon hopefully

Op I think you need to start clarifying your thinking. You've a few issues on the table. Firstly have they sent you the assessment report or are your criticising the decision letter that probably mirrors it.... I would request a copy of the evidence they have used (if you haven't already done so) including the assessment report if you haven't already got it. You really need to sit down with the activities and the descriptors and answer for yourself whether you should have qualified for either the WRAG or Support group via the descriptors. Until you do that nobody can really offer clarity of opinion on direction you should take. If you feel you should (have) qualified then it may be worth asking for a reconsideration (and potentially later tribunal appeal) in which you can argue for which descriptors you feel apply and why the DWP/assessment report decision and facts and opinions are wrong. You also seem to have shifting medical issues which impact the advice too... since you could let's imagine ultimately win an award in appeal at some efforts to yourself only to see the award short lived due to health improvements that may already have taken place. If there is little benefit to challenging the decision or you feel you should not qualify for ESA than the best advice may be to claim JSA and start looking for work (which sounds like you're doing anyway).

As a last point... it does seem like the assessment report will be full of flaw and error and deliberate manipulation of facts for their benefit in assessing you. What you describe is far from uncommon with selective fact recording, false fact recording and extrapolated opinion that seems shaky at best. It's a cautionary tale in that the HCPs will often listen for what they want to hear that suits them rather than suits accuracy. Let's imagine for example one was to say they used to go horse riding but recently have had difficulties doing that due to x,y,z - this may simply be recorded as 'enjoys going horse riding' which is actually probably true but it may then be used as a claimed fact to determine you are currently able to perform certain activities which may not be true.

Iwanttobefree

Thanks Mutley. The trouble is, I have trouble with my thinking, part of me wants to appeal, part of me wants to put it at the back of my mind and pretend it didn't happen.

I appreciate all that's been said. I understand it. I understand that with their criteria, I probably don't qualify.

But to expect someone to live on a £35 a week drop, well if it wasn't for my wife, I would be screwed. Sure all it will mean is us paying our creditors £35 a week less, but it's been HELL setting up some of those and getting the interest frozen, and I suspect some will now add interest etc hence will set us back again (with the interest frozen and our current payments, it will take about 20 years to clear.

What really gets me (again I understand now how it works) is that on the letter is states.

The assessment looks at how a person's disability, illness or health condition affects their ability to carry out a number of day to day activities that might affect their capability for work. Everyone is assessed in the same way and people are given points if they have limits on how and when they can do things.

and the goverments page on ESA states it's for

If you’re ill or disabled, Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) offers you:

financial support if you’re unable to work
personalised help so that you can work if you’re able to

You can apply for ESA if you’re employed, self-employed or unemployed.

You might be transferred to ESA if you’ve been claiming other benefits like Income Support or Incapacity Benefit.

Work Capability Assessment
You must have a Work Capability Assessment while your ESA claim is being assessed. This is to see to what extent your illness or disability affects your ability to work.

You’ll then be placed in one of 2 groups if you’re entitled to ESA:

work-related activity group, where you’ll have regular interviews with an adviser

support group, where you don’t have interviews

Without wanting to repeat myself, while I may not score enough points, I clearly fall into this description. Had they said they wanted me to try and find a job, placed me in the work related activity group etc and give me assistance due to my health problems etc, then I would have been more than happy as I had been looking for work anyway.

But to effectively say with all the things I've already listed in this thread that I don't need any support hence can have a £35 a week drop in benefits, I find that in a way insulting.

If I didn't have any health problems, sure, there's about 100 jobs I could go to tomorrow (presuming they want to interview a 53 yr old who hasn't worked for 20 years), but due to my health, I cant physically do those jobs therefore I don't see how I can be classed effectively fit enough to take any job. It's going to take a lot to find someone to employ me.

53, not worked for 20 years, still have various health problems, the chances of even getting an interview are slim, even if my health problems were now sorted. There's a lot of unemployment around here especially for people over 50 as too many employers want to pay less than mini wage so for unskilled work, would rather employ a school leaver etc

I think I will phone them and ask for a copy of the assessment report and take it from there

poppy12345

Iwanttobefree wrote: »

Thanks Mutley. The trouble is, I have trouble with my thinking, part of me wants to appeal, part of me wants to put it at the back of my mind and pretend it didn't happen.

I appreciate all that's been said. I understand it. I understand that with their criteria, I probably don't qualify.

But to expect someone to live on a £35 a week drop, well if it wasn't for my wife, I would be screwed. Sure all it will mean is us paying our creditors £35 a week less, but it's been HELL setting up some of those and getting the interest frozen, and I suspect some will now add interest etc hence will set us back again (with the interest frozen and our current payments, it will take about 20 years to clear.

What really gets me (again I understand now how it works) is that on the letter is states.



and the goverments page on ESA states it's for



Without wanting to repeat myself, while I may not score enough points, I clearly fall into this description. Had they said they wanted me to try and find a job, placed me in the work related activity group etc and give me assistance due to my health problems etc, then I would have been more than happy as I had been looking for work anyway.

But to effectively say with all the things I've already listed in this thread that I don't need any support hence can have a £35 a week drop in benefits, I find that in a way insulting.

If I didn't have any health problems, sure, there's about 100 jobs I could go to tomorrow (presuming they want to interview a 53 yr old who hasn't worked for 20 years), but due to my health, I cant physically do those jobs therefore I don't see how I can be classed effectively fit enough to take any job. It's going to take a lot to find someone to employ me.

53, not worked for 20 years, still have various health problems, the chances of even getting an interview are slim, even if my health problems were now sorted. There's a lot of unemployment around here especially for people over 50 as too many employers want to pay less than mini wage so for unskilled work, would rather employ a school leaver etc

I think I will phone them and ask for a copy of the assessment report and take it from there

You have had an awful lot of advice from many people. To be honest you don't have time to "think" about ringing for a copy of the assessment report. You have just 1 month from the date of the decision to get the MR in, the report could take at least 10 working days to arrive. You've already stated you've been looking for working. If you're planning on taking the MR route forget about waiting for that report and start your letter tomorrow, otherwise you'll be running out of time.

Muttleythefrog

Iwanttobefree wrote: »

I think I will phone them and ask for a copy of the assessment report and take it from there

I strongly advise that.... and for others my advice is always request the report a day or two after the assessment for several potential benefits including the one in play here... time.

The largely generic stuff the government or letters give such as you quote... take some and leave some... vague stuff is often more political than meaningful. Your focus should be on the various activities... the various descriptors and conclusively determine which descriptors apply to you. It sounds like you might have done that and concluded you should not qualify for ESA.... if true then challenging the decision would be potentially tricky as you'd be having to convince them (or later a tribunal) you meet criteria you feel you do not... (I'm not sure if you've been getting ESA main phase previously but if you have then obviously look at how you were qualifying for it.) And in such a scenario you might be better advised to focus efforts elsewhere and get the ESA issue out of way. You might be able to get advice from CAB or the like for all these issues.

It is true that people can have a lot wrong with them and be technically outwith the criteria for ESA... ESA's Work Capability Assessment criteria has been designed with thought for what areas of function are typically important in a work environment... and assigned descriptors to those areas of function to denote the severity of restriction they may impose... with an overall view to determine those people who have a benchmark considered of limited capability for work or more seriously a limited capability for work related activity. There are some special circumstance criteria to capture those who may not ordinarily qualify but whom it would be logically unwise or unrealistic to force into a work environment. Apparent anomalies will exist... a user I haven't seen around lately once reeled out hypothetical claimants.. one with vast problems but who should be found fit for work according to the criteria and another with a singular problem presenting one significant disablement that means they should qualify for the support group. The first would have had serious barriers to working and the latter probably less. But anyway... it is important you focus on your own technical circumstances of disability and claim.

Iwanttobefree

Many thanks.

Have just got off the phone to them, told them I will be appealing and they said they would send out the medical report second class today.

The more I read the letter rejecting my ESA, the more I find things that are simply either untrue or totally giving the wrong impression.

to give one more (of many more ) examples

He gets a lift to the supermarket about once or twice a week. When shopping can usually choose things, push trolley, reach things, queue at checkout and put shopping away.

I go with my wife so that I can get a bit of exercise.

I hold on to the trolley so I can lean forward to try and elevate my back pain a bit.

My wife gets anything on the bottom shelves as I cant comfortably reach, and if somethings not at the front on the top, she has to do that too.

Depending on how long we've been at the shop and how much pain I'm in, very often when in the checkout queue, I will leave my wife to it and go and sit down on the seats just past the checkout as I'm in so much pain.

I will carry a light shopping bag, my wife will struggle and carry any heavy ones as I can't manage it.

Sometimes I can help put stuff away (again my wife puts anything in a low cupboard away) but more often than not I have to apologise to her and go and sit down, leaving her to it.

In other words, what they describe I'm like and the reality of it, aren't really anything like each other.

Thanks for all the advice

TELLIT01

So much of this comes down to the way what has been said by the claimant is paraphrased by the HCP. The section quoted and the explanation given by the OP are both true but the detail behind it is missing from the HCP report. That is the sort of thing which can get clarified in the appeal process.