Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

GreatApe

Thrugelmir wrote: »

With fewer people living here. They'd be a requirement for fewer bin men.

That is not true because their jobs are dependent mostly on the number of homes there are not the number of people.

It's a physically demanding job that won't be so easy once someone is their fifties and sixties. That's when the demands on the public sector kick in.

If that is true, that these people ware out say age 60, then they are still not a burden because their job is vital and necessary. You can not have a job that is vital and necessary and then say the people doing it are a drain to society

Even if there was a job that people could only do for 5 years before they were so knackered that society would need to pension them off, if that was a vital job those people would not be a drain to society.

Another way to think about it is, if we ALL had the exact same skills IQ experience and temperament genetics and physical fitness etc. Bin men would be paid about £40-50k because jobs pay wouldn't depend on the skills needed because everyone has the same skills jobs would pay based on status difficulty and how long people could do it. If there was a vital job where people only lasted 5 years before becoming ill enough to be pensioned off, lets pretend cleaning the sewers did that to people, well that job would pay somewhere close to £200,000 a year. Of course right now people are not equally educated skilled or hard working so what we do is pay bin men £17k not £40-50k its the economies way of allocating lower skilled people to lower skilled jobs

Rusty_Shackleton

Give over Greatape, you're never going to convince a large number of people that bin men are of value to society, for the same reason as, when confronted with reports of nurses (who are supposedly hugely respected by the public) turning to foodbanks, you get BS responses about how 'oh, cos there aren't any nurses with a gambling problem', as if sufficient numbers of nurses using foodbanks to gain national attention are all gamblers, buying designer handbags instead of food, driving range rovers and so on.

Some people think they've done well because they're so hard working, and it couldn't possible have anything to do with lucky circumstances - anyone who hasn't done as well as them is lazy or has serious character flaws. Easier to blame the victims than consider that could easily be any of us, given a few different available options and choices earlier in our lives.

Thrugelmir

GreatApe wrote: »

That is not true because their jobs are dependent mostly on the number of homes there are not the number of people.

Homes don't generate waste though. Around here we have an increasing number of HMO's etc. As the cost of housing has risen. Correspondingly so have incidences of sharing. People adapt.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

The UK does not have a low rate of unemployment. If we had a genuinely low rate of unemployment, pay wouldnt be shrinking in real terms. Article on it here places rate at more like 20pc although personally i think the part time wanting full time figures probably inflate it more than they should.

I have met plenty of people who would like better paid jobs, mostly they work in retail
The problem is, these people do not actually apply for anything else or try to think about a different sector that pays more and how they can get into or train for it.

Just wanting something does not bring it into existence

I met one such person this year and bought a book on plumbing for him, he has since applied for a plumbing course that starts this September. He was just costing on a min wage job for the last 10 years. He hasn't the highest IQ in the world but is a very conscientious worker so I think he will manage to become a good competent plumber or other tradesmen probably on 3 times his current wage.

Arklight

Tromking wrote: »

I seem to recall the tragic Italian couple who perished in the Grenfell Tower. Both were full time students, yet somehow had bagged a flat in Kensington and Chelsea. I was under the impression that if benefits/housing are available to British citizens then the same must be given to EU citizens choosing to settle in the UK.

I don't know the specifics of the Italian couple, who I believe were referred to in the press as architects, but students can't claim housing benefit.


https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/housing_benefit/can_students_claim_housing_benefit


European students can only claim a loan for tuition fees, they can't claim a maintenance loan and need to be financially self sufficient while they are here.


While only 14 of the flats had been put up for private sale the council and police believe that many of them were being illegally sublet, as is common with council housing in London, where rents can reach thousands of pounds a month.

GreatApe

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Homes don't generate waste though. Around here we have an increasing number of HMO's etc. As the cost of housing has risen. Correspondingly so have incidences of sharing. People adapt.

People generate waste but a wheelybin 20% full takes more or less the same man minutes to collect and empty as one 80% full.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Give over Greatape, you're never going to convince a large number of people that bin men are of value to society, for the same reason as, when confronted with reports of nurses (who are supposedly hugely respected by the public) turning to foodbanks, you get BS responses about how 'oh, cos there aren't any nurses with a gambling problem', as if sufficient numbers of nurses using foodbanks to gain national attention are all gamblers, buying designer handbags instead of food, driving range rovers and so on.

No one mentally stable in the UK needs to use a food bank but if they are available then people will make use of them. And yes people will take from food banks so they have more money to spend on other things.

Oh and of course there are some normal people who are stupid and will spend their last dime one stupid things and then have little to nothing left until the next paycheck. Students come to mind, spend 80% of their grants in the first week buying alcohol and going out and the rest of the two months before they get their grant they only have enough for beans and toast.

Some people think they've done well because they're so hard working, and it couldn't possible have anything to do with lucky circumstances - anyone who hasn't done as well as them is lazy or has serious character flaws. Easier to blame the victims than consider that could easily be any of us, given a few different available options and choices earlier in our lives.

sure, three are parallel universes where the poor are rich and the rich are poor
However we live in this universe and the rich who already give up half their wealth are not happy about giving more of it away.

Arklight

GreatApe wrote: »

I have met plenty of people who would like better paid jobs, mostly they work in retail
The problem is, these people do not actually apply for anything else or try to think about a different sector that pays more and how they can get into or train for it.

Just wanting something does not bring it into existence

I met one such person this year and bought a book on plumbing for him, he has since applied for a plumbing course that starts this September. He was just costing on a min wage job for the last 10 years. He hasn't the highest IQ in the world but is a very conscientious worker so I think he will manage to become a good competent plumber or other tradesmen probably on 3 times his current wage.

Maybe your conscientious friend just deserved the minimum wage to be a living wage for the jobs he was doing.


I don't want to be the bearer of ill tidings but your friend has the odds stacked against him. While it is very easy to get on a plumbing course at an FE college, training positions in plumbing companies which are required to actually become a plumber are like hens teeth.


Due to mandatory education til 18 the FE sector is awash with young men and women training in professions for which there are simply no jobs for them.


I know one young guy who was on a plumbing course, passed all the exams, and couldn't get an apprenticeship anywhere. Not one person in his cohort managed to get one either.


He now works in mental health care on minimum wage. A profession which will never pay much more than minimum wage.




The "pull your socks up and hard work = big money" is fine for people who haven't had the ladder pulled up before they got to it, or people who haven't had the rug pulled out from under them. But it simply doesn't match the reality of many people.

Arklight

GreatApe wrote: »

No one mentally stable in the UK needs to use a food bank but if they are available then people will make use of them. And yes people will take from food banks so they have more money to spend on other things.

Oh and of course there are some normal people who are stupid and will spend their last dime one stupid things and then have little to nothing left until the next paycheck. Students come to mind, spend 80% of their grants in the first week buying alcohol and going out and the rest of the two months before they get their grant they only have enough for beans and toast.





sure, three are parallel universes where the poor are rich and the rich are poor
However we live in this universe and the rich who already give up half their wealth are not happy about giving more of it away.

I could comment at length about everything factually wrong with this diatribe of ill informed, resentful, closed minded ignorance, but I'll just summarise by pointing out that you have no idea what you are talking about.


There are many reasons why people are referred to food banks and only a few places you can be referred from, you can't just walk into one like it's a supermarket handing out free food.


I an not really sure what you have contributed to the planet to consider yourself worthy of such lofty superiority. It doesn't appear to have brought you anything other than bitterness and dislike of those less fortunate.

GreatApe

Rinoa wrote: »

There is a balance in any society. Some are born to be bin men, others nuclear scientists. Bin men are poorly paid but do a necessary job so I'm happy to pay a little more in taxes so he has a decent standard of living.

But you can only afford to subsidise a limited number of people before the natural balance is thrown out of kilter. And if you take in millions of migrants in a short period of time it puts extra pressue on schools, hospitals, transport. Pressure which is difficult to relieve if many migrants pay little or no tax.

If you want to settle in most countries they insist on you having a cast iron well paid job guarantee from a list of required professions or alternatively a substatial amount of money deposited in a bank account.

We need to do the same.

An increasing population is no bad thing and is almost irrelevant if it is migrants or women had more kids 20 years ago if anything kids cost more than migrants

If the bin man is not a drain to society, which he isn't, more or less the same applies to all the low paid jobs like nurses teaching assistants etc etc

The migrants on low wage jobs pay low or even no taxes, but they push dozens of people above them up the pay and skill scales so that marginal improvement in a dozen people above them should be accounted to them.

I know you dont quite understand this and wont accept it and I know I am not going to change your mind or convince you to think it through for the many hours it would take to click so we are at an impasse.

Maybe consider the opposite, a uk with no migrants and with 10% of families at the bottom.
Cull those 10% what happens, well you have a new 10% at the bottom as those jobs like bin men have to be filled. Cull the new 10%, well you now have a new 10% at the bottom as those jobs like bin men have to be filled. Keep doing it until the uk is just 5 million people. Guess what we are a husk of our former country and people are no richer than before there is still a bottom 10% doing the !!!! jobs low status jobs low pay jobs and you still think they are a drain to your uk of 5 million people. A few years back this bottom 10% was in the top 20% before you started your cycle of culling the lowest paid who are a 'drain' to taxes....supposedly