Building society ISA - probate

CookieRose

Hi all - my first post, hoping you can help please!

My father recently passed away, leaving a will - very black and white, everything to go to my mother. Dad was meticulous with his personal financial affairs, and his tax and finances were up to date for FY2016/2017.

There is an ISA with a building society that we are having trouble with - they are insisting we get probate to release the cash in the ISA to my mum. Everything is very clear in terms of paperwork and entitlement, i.e. my parents were married (marriage certificate - check), my Dad leaves everything to his wife in his will (solicitor held will - check) , we have Dad's death certificate - check! There are no other beneficiaries and no contest to the will/estate/entitlement.

I've checked the terms and conditions of the account with the BS and it states:

If an account is solely held by an individual who dies:
• the money in the account will normally be paid to the person who is entitled to it under
the deceased’s will or the laws which apply if someone dies without leaving a will; but
• if the amount in the account is £15,000 or less (or a different amount if the government
decides), our rules (which follow the law governing building societies) allow us to pay the
money to a person who gives us a formal declaration that they are legally entitled to it.

The amount in the ISA is £30k, and they are now telling us that their policy is to demand probate for accounts in excess of £15k.

Can they REALLY insist this? It's not in their terms and conditions, and we have the necessary paperwork to satisfy the relevant point from their Ts&Cs above. I have asked them to show me where on their website their policy is explained, and they simply pointed me to the Ts&Cs doc (above extract).

Worth noting that every other financial institution has been satisfied with my Mum's identification/marriage/death certificates and this is the ONLY account we are having an issue with. It seems ridiculous to be required to go through probate for the sake of one account, raking up paperwork, time and effort to simply confirm what we already know - he's died, she's the beneficiary, no inheritance tax to pay, job done surely?! No inheritance tax limits or rules have been breached.

I'm a complete novice to probate (we all are at some stage I guess!) so if there's something we're missing that makes this process necessary, I'd appreciate some guidance please!

Thank you in advance for any info!

Yorkshireman99

CookieRose wrote: »

Hi all - my first post, hoping you can help please!

My father recently passed away, leaving a will - very black and white, everything to go to my mother. Dad was meticulous with his personal financial affairs, and his tax and finances were up to date for FY2016/2017.

There is an ISA with a building society that we are having trouble with - they are insisting we get probate to release the cash in the ISA to my mum. Everything is very clear in terms of paperwork and entitlement, i.e. my parents were married (marriage certificate - check), my Dad leaves everything to his wife in his will (solicitor held will - check) , we have Dad's death certificate - check! There are no other beneficiaries and no contest to the will/estate/entitlement.

I've checked the terms and conditions of the account with the BS and it states:

If an account is solely held by an individual who dies:
• the money in the account will normally be paid to the person who is entitled to it under
the deceased’s will or the laws which apply if someone dies without leaving a will; but
• if the amount in the account is £15,000 or less (or a different amount if the government
decides), our rules (which follow the law governing building societies) allow us to pay the
money to a person who gives us a formal declaration that they are legally entitled to it.

The amount in the ISA is £30k, and they are now telling us that their policy is to demand probate for accounts in excess of £15k.

Can they REALLY insist this? It's not in their terms and conditions, and we have the necessary paperwork to satisfy the relevant point from their Ts&Cs above. I have asked them to show me where on their website their policy is explained, and they simply pointed me to the Ts&Cs doc (above extract).

Worth noting that every other financial institution has been satisfied with my Mum's identification/marriage/death certificates and this is the ONLY account we are having an issue with. It seems ridiculous to be required to go through probate for the sake of one account, raking up paperwork, time and effort to simply confirm what we already know - he's died, she's the beneficiary, no inheritance tax to pay, job done surely?! No inheritance tax limits or rules have been breached.

I'm a complete novice to probate (we all are at some stage I guess!) so if there's something we're missing that makes this process necessary, I'd appreciate some guidance please!

Thank you in advance for any info!

Banks and building societies can choose what limit they require probate for. They have every right to demand probate. The front line staff may not have the rules correct. Ask if they have a bereavment help line. They may be able to arrange payment if an indemnity is given.

CookieRose

Thanks for the quick reply! So I've asked if they have a bereavement team, and they don't (unusual I'm told... I work in FS, for the big blue bank, and we have one!).

Can they still insist on this policy even if it's not in the terms and conditions, or published anywhere for customers to see the details? They can't provide anything in writing, the standard customer services team simply state it over the phone. Seems a bit loose to me!

I'm pretty certain that had my Dad known this policy, he would have structured the cash into two smaller ISAs to mitigate the problem!

Yorkshireman99

Sorry to say the bank have every right to insist on Probate regardless of the T&C. It is a pain but you just have to do it. You might ask, tongue in cheek, if they will pay the priobate fee. AIUI at least one building society demands Probate for any amount.. Get the application in early as the fees are about to rise.

TonyMMM

Probate is required to deal with the contents of a will - the building society have every right to insist on it, even if the balance were only £1.

Whilst they can take a risk and allow accounts to be accessed without it, they can impose whatever conditions they like on that - even with an indemnity it still exposes them to the risk of litigation.

Just apply for probate - it is a simple process involving a couple of forms to fill in.

CookieRose

TonyMMM wrote: »

The T&Cs you posted make it quite clear they will only release funds up to £15k without probate, and you state the balance is £30k ....what's the misunderstanding ?

Probate is required to deal with the contents of a will - the building society have every right to insist on it, even if the balance were only £1.

Whilst they can take a risk and allow accounts to be accessed without it, then can impose whatever conditions they like on that - even with an indemnity it still exposes them to the risk of litigation.

Just apply for probate - it is a simple process involving a couple of forms to fill in.

Ouch! I did state I'm a novice at this! Their terms and conditions don't mention any requirement to go through probate. Yes, they refer to a will, but the second bullet implies that they'll pay out under £15k to anyone who makes a formal declaration of entitlement. So that doesn't say to me that they will demand probate for anything above.

Fair enough, if they're entitled to demand probate for whatever amount, we'll have to go through all of the aggravation, but I'm surprised that they don't have to put this information in terms and conditions or publish their policies, that's all.

I don't understand what indemnity would mean in this context (did you see the bit about me being a novice? ) - or what litigation could be taken against the BS. This is all new to me, having only lost one father.

But thanks for your input.

CookieRose

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

Sorry to say the bank have every right to insist on Probate regardless of the T&C. It is a pain but you just have to do it. You might ask, tongue in cheek, if they will pay the priobate fee. AIUI at least one building society demands Probate for any amount.. Get the application in early as the fees are about to rise.

Thanks - the cost of probate isn't the issue, far from it. It's the impact it will have on Mum, in terms of her time, effort, stress etc. Seems all very unnecessary... but if they say it IS necessary for them, then why haven't they made it clear by documenting it in their Ts&Cs and published their policies? Maybe that's a rhetorical question... If it had been clear, my parents may have divided up their savings differently - I know Dad would be furious and feel misled!

TonyMMM

Probate isn't something they need to have a policy about specifically - it is the legal process all wills are dealt with under. It is what gives the executor the legal right to access the assets (including bank accounts) of the deceased.

Increasingly some financial organisations are prepared to allow that access without a grant of probate - but in doing so they will require the person to sign an indemnity to cover themselves in case someone claims against them if the person doesn't then distribute the money properly etc.

Even by doing that they are taking a risk of getting embroiled in family disputes so most will only do so for a certain amount ( £15k is quite high - many have a lower limit) - some organisations will not do it at all.

CookieRose

TonyMMM wrote: »

Probate isn't something they need to have a policy about specifically - it is the legal process all wills are dealt with under. It is what gives the executor the legal right to access the assets (including bank accounts) of the deceased.

Increasingly some financial organisations are prepared to allow that access without a grant of probate - but in doing so they will require the person to sign an indemnity to cover themselves in case someone claims against them if the person doesn't then distribute the money properly etc.

Even by doing that they are taking a risk of getting embroiled in family disputes so most will only do so for a certain amount ( £15k is quite high - many have a lower limit) - some organisations will not do it at all.

Thanks for the explanation, helpful info.

So even if my sister and I, along with my mum, prepared a statement through a solicitor saying that we agree that all proceeds from the account to go my mum, they can still insist and it's just tough? Would the above be an indemnity? We are a tiny family, the only other blood relatives are his cousin in Canada (not named anywhere on the will, or likely to want any entitlement!) and my 14 year old nephew (who is set to be a rich lad once we're all gone, as I don't have children so he'll get all my estate as well as that of his parents!)

TonyMMM

Your father went to the trouble of making a will (many people don't) and it is perfectly normal and required that wills have to be "proved" through the probate process, I'm not sure why you expect not to have to do that ?

In reality it involves filling in a couple of forms, and the executor swearing an oath to properly execute the will (which can be done at a local probate office, or in a commissioner for oaths/solicitors office).

You can easily do it yourself - no need for a solicitor to be involved at all.

Keep_pedalling

CookieRose wrote: »

Thanks for the explanation, helpful info.

So even if my sister and I, along with my mum, prepared a statement through a solicitor saying that we agree that all proceeds from the account to go my mum, they can still insist and it's just tough? Would the above be an indemnity? We are a tiny family, the only other blood relatives are his cousin in Canada (not named anywhere on the will, or likely to want any entitlement!) and my 14 year old nephew (who is set to be a rich lad once we're all gone, as I don't have children so he'll get all my estate as well as that of his parents!)

No that would be a total waste of time, just bite the bullet and get probate underway.