The Great British Brexit Robbery....

gfplux

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

The referendum wasn't won by techie "hijacking" (that is a serious word to use); it was lost by the Remain campaign completely failing to sell the benefits of the EU (whilst acknowledging the flaws); and the dismissive and unyielding attitude of the EU overlords when Cameron tried to obtain some reasonable changes.

I agree with your first point.
Not sure Even if Cameron brought home the Golden Fleece the result would have been much different.

gfplux

kabayiri wrote: »

Bugs is a she

I voted for selfish reasons. I think we can tap in to a large body of labour elsewhere.

But I've said before. We (UK) have spent the last few decades creating extensive outsourcing arrangements with places like India, so why should anyone be surprised when people like me exist with far more dealings with people in India and China compared to Poland and Romania?

I did think the EU was the future when I worked around Europe pre-2000, but I don't think the project is driven by economics now. Perhaps it's a trust thing.

And...it might seem odd of me to say, but I think Brexit might be just the kind of kick up the pants the EU needs to refocus and become stronger.

Your final paragraph.
I hope you are right. Add Macron into the mix and I am slightly cautiously hopeful.

gfplux

I voted remain because I am a British citizen living outside the UK in another EU Country.
And
I believe passionately that the EU is a route to peace and stability, that the four freedoms were important.

I did not vote to remain because I thought the EU was perfect. There are many faults.

I do think that elections can be effected by the use of money and technology. I also believe you don't need to influence many people to get the result you want particularly if the opposition run such a dreadful campaign aimed at the WRONG people like Remain AND Clinton.

Out,_Vile_Jelly

gfplux wrote: »

I agree with your first point.
Not sure Even if Cameron brought home the Golden Fleece the result would have been much different.

Obviously the hard-core kippers would have voted Out whatever, but I think by and large the British are small c conservative and dislike extremes or dramatic change. If the EU had shown anything that could be identified as common sense, pragmatism and flexibility around the undeniable issues that arise when you try to create a union with economies as disparate as those of the UK and Bulgaria then it would have been the Leavers that looked unreasonable.

kabayiri

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

Obviously the hard-core kippers would have voted Out whatever, but I think by and large the British are small c conservative and dislike extremes or dramatic change. If the EU had shown anything that could be identified as common sense, pragmatism and flexibility around the undeniable issues that arise when you try to create a union with economies as disparate as those of the UK and Bulgaria then it would have been the Leavers that looked unreasonable.

The EU is just an experiment, that's all. Maybe it had an economic basis at one time, but it's mainly political now.

Not all experiments succeed. In fact, people who conduct experiments realize that you have to constantly tweak the parameters until the measurements show signs that the goals are being met.

The EU elite won't adapt and bend though; too much pride at stake.

kabayiri

gfplux wrote: »

...
I believe passionately that the EU is a route to peace and stability, that the four freedoms were important.
...

These freedoms are just inventions. What if I believe passionately that some of these inventions are a route to unrest and chaos? Surely I have to vote according to my passion, just as you vote for yours.

In the end, it becomes a numbers game and we both accept that the majority should win out?

sann420

Conrad wrote: »

A few papers and the odd politician vs


+ the Govt of the day
+ Martin Lewis (most trusted person in UK)
+ the organs of the State
+ Obama
+ the Banks
+ 1000 signatory lawyers
+ Scientists and Universities
+ global leaders
+the IMF
+ Brussels
+Unions
+ CBI
+ COE
+ former PM's
+ the entire Establishment
+Guardian, Mirror, Independent, Times




I wonder which team had the power on it's side?

If LITERALLY EVERYBODY said stay in then they just miiiight have had a point. Just maybe.

But obviously the all knowing british public fed on a healthy diet of daily mail knows more than all the insiders combined.

mystic_trev

gfplux wrote: »

I agree with your first point.
Not sure Even if Cameron brought home the Golden Fleece the result would have been much different.

I think it would have been different. Cameron didn't realise how many people saw he was wearing the Emperor's new clothes.

Thrugelmir

mystic_trev wrote: »

I think it would have been different. Cameron didn't realise how many people saw he was wearing the Emperor's new clothes.

When Cameron publishes his memoirs will be a fascinating insight into the reception he received from the other leaders. He made a monumental misjudgement. Didn't realise how little the politicos in Brussels actually cared about ordinary peoples views.

cogito

bugslet wrote: »

Yep, I'm definitely a lady.

All the reasons....let's stick with one for now. Regular readers can skip this, it's re-hashing old territory.

I work in International haulage and have done all of my working life since '82 one way or another. I used to drive out to Europe in the mid 80s to early 90s and around 8 out of every 10 trucks were UK registered. The stats for the third quarter of 2016 were 12.6 % were British registered.

Whilst many industries suffer from off-shoring to some degree or another, this is different ( I think unique, but there may be another industry so I'm open to suggestions), and nor is it to do with other EU workers coming here and undercutting pay rates. * In essence we have now primarily Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian and Bulgarian companies where the cost base is significantly lower than in the country where they trade. The primary cost being wages, which in a UK truck forms approx 25% of costs; those nations above are paying around a third of what I would pay a UK driver.

The EU relaxed cabotage rules a couple of years ago (previously a foreign truck could deliver from abroad and then collect to take to another foreign country, but no moves from say Glasgow to Birmingham), to allow three moves in say the UK, before having to collect cargo for abroad. The stated intention is that cabotage be abolished completely. Currently domestic moves by foreign hauliers only account for 1% of UK transport, but the latest DfT figures showed an increase of 50% in one year. Personally I see that increasing.

I'm in a very unusual sector and no Polish company can take my work, but it bothers me that so many Companies have gone and so much tax revenue has been lost. I used to backload via a clearing house/freight exchange, but it is now cheaper for me to bring back a truck from the bottom end of Italy empty than to load it as I cannot work for the rates that the East EU can do. My outbound rate cover the cost of the return, so it isn't an issue, unlike general hauliers.

The EU has actually recognised this as a problem. The UK has been slow in this regard, but over the last two years, several countries - notably France and Germany - have introduced Minimum Wage legislation to say that any haulier from another member state has to pay at least the minimum wage in their country and recently they have enforced the regulation that says that you cannot take a weekend break (45 hours) in the cab. Both those laws are aimed at curtailing East EU hauliers. The EU Transport Commissioner is this month looking at the problem, and I think they will do something dressed up as social care - some of those foreign lads are working for a pittance and are literally away from home for months at a time. It's a carp existence for them.

* ONS estimated that impact on wages was 2%, but discounted sessional workers. Whilst I could lose 2% of my wage and not notice, those on poor pay will. I've given you the above as a reason, this is another. It isn't xenophobia, it's economics. I've no issue with migrant labour and certainly when it comes to the Poles, I've nothing but praise for their work ethic, time-keeping and standards generally, but I do feel sorry for those affected.

Technically I voted against my interests as theoretically being a big bad nasty boss, I should welcome wage suppression and there is potential customs issues arising, but I'm sanguine about those for reasons I've mentioned in previous threads.

The fact that foreign registered vehicles avoid buying fuel in the UK and pay nothing to use our roads are issues which also need addressing.