Smart Meters

brewerdave

Deleted_User wrote: »

Really? That's interesting because I spoke to someone in the billing department of my supplier (E.ON) a couple of months back. She said I should simply convert my in-house display reading from the kWh displayed into cubic meters using a formula she had. Like you, I questioned this saying "surely it depends on caloric value of the gas which varies?". She said no, not so. She had been working for E.ON for 26 years and the conversion formula between cubic meters and kWh had never changed in all the years she had worked for the company.

So you are contradicting what billing staff at E.ON have told me.If that's the case, why don't they do the obvious thing, use some common sense, and let the IHD for gas display the cubic meters exactly matching the meter reading needed by my supplier? What's the point of manufacturing an in-house display which shows meter readings in units which cannot be used for supplying consumer readings and (according to you) are "only an approximation"? They might just as well display the gas reading in Transylvanian Greckles for all the use the displayed figure is.

The EON billing lady is talking thru' her derriere !:rotfl:

I've just looked at a random selection of my EON bills from the last 7 years - the calorific value has been different on all of the bills varying between 39.0 and 39.4:)

As to showing instantaneous cu m on the IHD ? It wouldn't mean anything to the average consumer who only understands KWh.
I do agree that the actual meter reading in cu m should be available by use of a menu of some sort for billing purposes.

Pincher

These European smart meters wouldn't be under a monopoly set up, would they? So you are never going to switch suppliers, and so compatibility will never be an issue.

[Deleted User]

You can get the calorific value from the National Grid website and it does change. The E.ON customer service lady was talking absolute rubbish
http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/industry-information/gas-transmission-operational-data/data-item-explorer/
As an example here is the last 7 days for area EA from the website (Note although the date range is up to today due to the way it is calculated in arrears the last full date is for 1 day ago)

Applicable At Applicable For Data Item Value Generated Time Quality Indicator
06/05/2017 10:30:29 06/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.4000 06/05/2017 10:32:01
06/05/2017 10:30:29 05/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 06/05/2017 10:32:01
05/05/2017 10:30:30 04/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 05/05/2017 10:32:01
04/05/2017 10:30:30 03/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 04/05/2017 10:32:02
03/05/2017 10:30:48 02/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 03/05/2017 10:34:01
02/05/2017 10:30:27 01/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 02/05/2017 10:32:01
01/05/2017 10:30:37 30/04/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.6000 01/05/2017 10:34:01
All data presented on the MIPI and GMRS applications are in GB standard reference conditions. National Grid may receive data for the

victor2

Some years back, I grabbed the National Grid CV for my area on a daily basis and when I received my utility bills, I compared the CV used for the billing period against the average of the daily published figures. The value used was consistently less than the calculated average - typically something like 39.3 used when the average was 39.5. So, it was always in my favour and only made a tiny difference to the monthly billed cost, less than £1 usually.
After two years and two different suppliers, I was satisfied that I was not being overcharged and I wasn't going to complain about slightly being undercharged.

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User wrote: »

he conversion formula between cubic meters and kWh had never changed in all the years she had worked for the company.

... why don't they do the obvious thing, use some common sense, and let the IHD for gas display the cubic meters exactly matching the meter reading needed by my supplier?

The formula is the same BUT the calorific value is a daily variable (and it must be calculated as an average value over the time frame of the bill under OFGEM rules to 1 decimal place)

Please read this post by Hengus where he explains in detail the legal requirements on a supplier to get the calorific value correct
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/72463142#Comment_72463142

As for why the in house display design is so bad, well it is designed by committee to "help" the consumer to understand where their pennies go so an approximation is okay. It is not meant to give 100% accurate values and cannot for gas given everything I and others have said.

EachPenny

brewerdave wrote: »

As to showing instantaneous cu m on the IHD ? It wouldn't mean anything to the average consumer who only understands KWh.
I do agree that the actual meter reading in cu m should be available by use of a menu of some sort for billing purposes.

I've not looked at the technical specs, so the following is a guess rather than fact, but I wonder whether to save money some (maybe all?) IHD's have limited data communication capability with the linked meter so are unable to display the actual meter reading.

The simpler way of monitoring energy consumption used in some retail monitors is to transmit a 'pulse' signal to signify a specific quantity of consumption, a bit like some electricity meters flash an LED to indicate consumption of 1/100 or 1/1000th of a kWh. Or else measure instantaneous current flow and convert that into a small packet of binary data representing an amperage 'level' rather than absolute value. Either technique only requires a very small amount of data to be transmitted one-way from the meter and received by the IHD.

Transmitting the actual meter readings, possibly up to three separate 5 or 6 digit numbers, requires significantly more data to be transmitted. Also if the data recieved by the IHD is going to be used for billing purposes then potentially there is a need for a two-way communication to facilitate error detection and correction.

The difficulty of establishing a two-way data connection to transmit the actual meter readings is not great, the cost of the additional electronics is not significant compared to the cost per household of the project, but you know how these projects go - for the reasons given already the gas kWh figure on an IHD can only ever be indicative, so we may as well use marginally cheaper/simpler electronics to give indicitave values for everything and avoid the need to have regulatory robust (i.e. used for billing) actual meter readings displayed on the IHD.

Hopefully later models of meter/IHD will improve the capability to display actual meter readings.

victor2

EachPenny wrote: »

The simpler way of monitoring energy consumption used in some retail monitors is to transmit a 'pulse' signal to signify a specific quantity of consumption, a bit like some electricity meters flash an LED to indicate consumption of 1/100 or 1/1000th of a kWh. Or else measure instantaneous current flow and convert that into a small packet of binary data representing an amperage 'level' rather than absolute value. Either technique only requires a very small amount of data to be transmitted one-way from the meter and received by the IHD.

I don't know how they communicate either, but I would have thought that relying on some sort of consumption "pulse" is fraught with possible errors. How does the IHD get its first reading? What happens when the IHD misses a signal and/or is powered down when a signal should have been processed?

Mark_Chambers

"Smart" meters are a gross invasion of my privacy...and for this reason I will NEVER accept a smart meter as long as I live. What I do in my own home is of no concern to anyone else but me. I'll provide my supplier with a meter reading whenever they want one, or allow them access to inspect my meters every 6 months...but I will not under ANY circumstances allow the fitting of smart meters in my property. Besides, I'd like to think I'm keeping someone in a job too...not a bad thing in this current environment of complete automation making humans totally redundant.

System

EachPenny wrote: »

Hopefully later models of meter/IHD will improve the capability to display actual meter readings.

I very much doubt it because there is absolutely no value whatsoever spending even more money in this way. Smart meters are capable of half hourly reporting back to the DCC/supplier. The logical place to look for your meter readings is by accessing your online account. Moreover, after 12 months, suppliers will be under no obligation to replace broken IHDs. The cost of a replacement IHD will fall to consumers.

[Deleted User]

gsmlnx wrote: »

You can get the calorific value from the National Grid website and it does change. The E.ON customer service lady was talking absolute rubbish
http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/industry-information/gas-transmission-operational-data/data-item-explorer/
As an example here is the last 7 days for area EA from the website (Note although the date range is up to today due to the way it is calculated in arrears the last full date is for 1 day ago)

Applicable At Applicable For Data Item Value Generated Time Quality Indicator
06/05/2017 10:30:29 06/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.4000 06/05/2017 10:32:01
06/05/2017 10:30:29 05/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 06/05/2017 10:32:01
05/05/2017 10:30:30 04/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 05/05/2017 10:32:01
04/05/2017 10:30:30 03/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 04/05/2017 10:32:02
03/05/2017 10:30:48 02/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 03/05/2017 10:34:01
02/05/2017 10:30:27 01/05/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.5000 02/05/2017 10:32:01
01/05/2017 10:30:37 30/04/2017 Calorific Value, LDZ(EA) 39.6000 01/05/2017 10:34:01
All data presented on the MIPI and GMRS applications are in GB standard reference conditions. National Grid may receive data for the

This all sounds very interesting and no doubt what your saying is probably correct. However I am just an ordinary consumer and I simply want to be able to find a way of reading my meters remotely so I can view and supply a gas and electricity meter reading from time to time. I'd like the readings to be displayed in the correct units as required energy suppliers. So if my display says the meter reading is xxxxx I want to be able to pass the figure xxxxx on without having to do extensive research or jump though hoops involving complex conversions. Please see my new thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/72511857#Comment_72511857