Grade 2 - should we reconsider our offer?

redhead123

Hi all,
We offered on a listed house - aware of the need for changes etc to be approved by the council. I rang the council to check what could and couldn't be changed, as this property had a double glazed window at the back. The EA said I shouldn't have done that and said hopefully they wouldn't find out as it invalidates the insurance. We were not told about this at the point of offering. This means that the problem we be passed on to us - however the fact that it sounds like this was done without permission makes me wonder if anything else has been done! I wonder whether to request proof of permission before I spend money on mortgage valuation let alone a survey. We do like the house and know it costs more to upkeep because it is listed but the fact we were not told about this makes me nervous. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Browntoa

if the council are now aware then indemnity insurance is not possible


joys of buying a listed building (or living in a strict conservation area)

n217970

You would have to be mental (or very rich) to buy a listed house.

Doozergirl

Did you give them the address, etc? For future reference, you really should put these questions through solicitors so that you're not jeopardising things by accident.

You can ask the local authority for the planning history on a house. What you shouldn't be doing is alerting them to possible breaches.

The original listing will be available online. They aren't that detailed so it's very hard to even establish what the starting point was.

I specialise in the renovation and restoration of listed buildings. What you have to bear in mind is that many of these houses will have had wildly inappropriate additions and changes made before they were listed. And some after.

The worst that can happen is enforcement, but when you consider how many building regs breaches are enforced (virtually none) and then consider just how permanently under staffed conservation is in comparison, the chances of enforcement are pretty much nil. I worked on a house in Birmingham recently. Bearing in mind that it is the largest local authority in the country, while we were working, they had two conservation officers for the whole city. At one point that dropped to zero. Redditch had zero when we had a project there. My husband phoned them after 7 months waiting for LBC and told them he was digging up the floor and that they needed to send someone!

If you love a listed building then you'll be keen to change the window anyway. Perhaps not immediately, but when you come to do some work you can put it in with the application and the conservation officer will be happy to see it go.

If you can be pragmatic about it then you can budget in your offer etc to change that window. You don't need to protect it and the preference should be to change it. It is possible to get DG approved sometimes. Not uPVC, obviously!

Doozergirl

n217970 wrote: »

You would have to be mental (or very rich) to buy a listed house.

Care to share your experience of owning one?

Hoploz

This really is something you need to look at carefully. You need to think of the implications of the listed building status. It doesn't just mean you have to ask permission to make changes, it means that a lot of what we would normally expect these days cannot be changed.

For example the double glazing. It doesn't mean you've got to ask to get it, but means you can't have it. I own a listed building and it is draughty with the single glazing. There's a lot of condensation so I have to wipe down the windows every morning in the winter so the frames dont go mouldy and eventually rot. The external painting needs doing regularly. The windows eventually deteriorate. You want to replace them ..... Council says no, the originals must be repaired, not replaced, even like for like. You have to bodge them up with bits of wood and filler and it's a bloody nightmare tbh. When they get so bad there's more filler than wood you ask to replace them. They must be absolutely identical. Exact profile the same. No chance of upgrading to double glazed units as they don't fit within the same profile.

Honestly, this is really hard work, and your living conditions suffer accordingly.

Then there's the boiler flue. I've read twice on Here recently where building regs have recently changed, people are having problems as their boiler flue doesnt vent directly to outside. Conservation officer says one thing, building inspector says another. It is a very difficult situation to be in.

Of course, I love my period home. There is no modern equivalent. High ceilings, beautiful mouldings, lovely fireplace, Georgian grandeur, it really is something special. But I'm lucky as the property had been renovated when we bought it, meaning we don't have to jump through these hoops. But one day in a few years time we will.

You just have to accept that you will be living in the standards of years gone by, and if the property is in reasonable nick that's ok. But if you think you'll make a few changes and bring it up to modern living expectations forget it.

Anyway, you need to check out when this double glazed window was done. If the changes were made before the listing then it must remain as is. (So if there are hideous changes made in the 70's they should stay!)

Doozergirl

Hoploz, that might be your experience, but it isn't everyone's. If you employ the right people then it is absolutely possible to get what you need from a house, especially a Grade II listed one. People in listed buildings may not have the most energy efficient buildings but we should be talking higher bills, not poor living conditions.

We work on properties with permission to change the windows all the time and have even got DG through on some windows. Repairing a precious window can, in effect, be done without LBC. And those windows can be removed and repaired with wood and glass replaced wherever necessary.

It is a process of negotiation with conservation officers, but most do not insist on keeping inappropriate 1970s windows in a house, they would rather see them the way they should be. Some LA building control officers have no understanding of the rules on conservation. Conservation always trumps building control so there's usually no argument to be had, but conservation officers also have to take into account modern living and the safety of occupants. Conservation is as much about progression as it is about preservation. It's about being able to read a building's history, not about pickling Grade II homes.

n217970

Doozergirl wrote: »

Care to share your experience of owning one?

Pretty much what Hoploz said. I am not going to claim to owning one, but my parents did and I remember how high the gas bill alone was. £2500 a year in the 90s, I have no idea how much that equates to today but I suspect it is a hell of a lot. Even then it was always cold in winter thanks to the single pane windows and draughts. Mental or rich, I have no idea which one my parents fell into but I do know they are not rich now.

Hoploz

It's a decision the OP needs to make, and go in with eyes wide open. I'm just saying it's more than just a case of asking permission - the point is you actually might not get it. I'd be very cautious if it is a do-er upper house, but happier if recently renovated to a good standard.

I think when it's your home you want to be comfortable whereas looking from a business perspective is a bit different.

My period property is not my full time home and therefore I'm happy to live with the draughts and cold when I am there but I wouldn't want to be there all the time. I feel more comfortable with my cosy but very ordinary upvc double glazing in winter

trailingspouse

I think the OPs problem is not so much with the issues surrounding Grade II status, but with the fact that they feel the vendors haven't been upfront with them.

All I can suggest is that you go back to the estate agent and say exactly that - you were disappointed to find that there had been alterations where perhaps permission should have been sought but it wasn't. Apologise for 'dropping them in it' but explain that you never imagined they wouldn't have had permission... And see what the reaction is.

If, at the end of the day, you feel you just don't trust the vendors then all you can do is walk away. Other listed buildings are available - and there are lots of characterful buildings that aren't listed.

Private_Church

Doozergirl wrote: »

Hoploz, that might be your experience, but it isn't everyone's. If you employ the right people then it is absolutely possible to get what you need from a house, especially a Grade II listed one. People in listed buildings may not have the most energy efficient buildings but we should be talking higher bills, not poor living conditions.

Can you explain this DG, because much of my work is on Grade I & II Listed properties and from my 30+yrs experience its rare to see much flexibility with Conservation depts. In fact many are now forcing people to repair windows,doors etc which are beyond repairing rather than allowing the home owners from having exact replacements made. I have known people spend £thousands on planning barristers and still fail so I am interested in what you say.

I've just had one job cancelled because the CO won't allow replacement windows and insisted on repairing the existing ones which are 1970's stormproof casement windows in a property dating back to around 1720...Work that one out.:(

We work on properties with permission to change the windows all the time and have even got DG through on some windows. Repairing a precious window can, in effect, be done without LBC. And those windows can be removed and repaired with wood and glass replaced wherever necessary.

In many areas including here there is no consistancy with Conservation.As you say sometimes they will allow replacements with double glazing and in the same road on another property they won't.Same village,same road, both Grade II Listed. From my experience most Conservation officers wouldn't know a Gerogian sash window from a Victorian one and yet their opinions seem to hold water, its quite ridiculous.

I was once forced to repair some windows that were designed by Decimus Burton , the windows weren't 19th Century windows but mid 20th Century copies of the originals which I pointed out to the CO but they refused to let me make accurate replacements even though the existing ones were beyond repair and by the sea which is about as bad as it gets.

I think you must be very lucky in having some good CO's because the last decent one I dealt with retired about 10yrs ago............:)