My dog had cardiac arrest in small cage at vets after 14 hours

LusciousLuce

In some ways I do hope you are able to get an expert opinion from a veterinary surgeon as maybe then you'll be able to accept what I and almost everyone else who has posted on this thread have been saying: that there is no case to answer and no evidence that the vet practice caused your dog's death, acted unprofessionally, disregarded his welfare, were negligent in his treatment, or any other of the numerous claims you've variously levelled at them.

However, it is highly unlikely that any veterinary surgeon would be prepared to give their opinion on another vet's treatment unless compelled to do so. So ringing around other veterinary practices is unlikely to find you a willing vet I'm afraid. I think there's even something in the RCVS code of conduct about not bad mouthing fellow veterinary professionals.

There are probably veterinary/medical negligence law firms out there who would be able to find a vet to act as an expert witness, but you'd have to pay for that.

gettingready

telboy82 wrote: »

Firstly, pop up pirate, and gettingready, go elsewhere if your going to say im making it up as I go along, its an awful lot of effort to go through and still be going through

Right, and instead of grieving for the dog you have lost - you spend so much time and effort looking for some vendetta

Pop_Up_Pirate

telboy82 wrote: »

Firstly, pop up pirate, and gettingready, go elsewhere if your going to say im making it up as I go along, its an awful lot of effort to go through and still be going through if I were simply just making it up as I went along. I paid for the dog for a family member and was his carer as I lived in the same property untill I moved out and I adopted him as I left london. the vets he was registered at by the registered owner at the time who I bought the dog for were happy to keep him on even though we adopted him and moved out the area, even though its a charity vet, every vets prices are different and yes although I may have paid at slightly reduced rate than a full on private vet, I still pay for a service, I am in the process of finding vets to talk to about this, I do believe I have the right to an expert witness as well, and if after all the information has been discussed and they think differently about the situation, then we will see. But im still here im not going to go anywhere because anyone wants to say im making up a story.

You started this thread with a fixation that your dog died because of the cage being too small.
You went on and on about how your dog died due to being "scared to death".
With any reasonable explanations that anyone has made or suggested, you've then embellished and added on information that 'supports' your frame of mind.

You do not come across as reliable or truthful when relaying information on here. Instead you come across as emotional and unable to think clearly and rationally.

chookmom

Some people are so nasty and lacking in empathy.
This person had lost a beloved pet suddenly and came on here distraught.
Is it surprising that they come across as "emotional and unable to think clearly and rationally" in the immediate aftermath?
It is clear as time has gone on that this is resolving.

gettingtheresometime

chookmom wrote: »

Some people are so nasty and lacking in empathy.
This person had lost a beloved pet suddenly and came on here distraught.
Is it surprising that they come across as "emotional and unable to think clearly and rationally" in the immediate aftermath?
It is clear as time has gone on that this is resolving.

I don't often post on this board, except when beagle is being a complete ******* and need some advice (even after 6 yrs of having him) but I've always found this board to be helpful as well as showing empathy to others.


In fact - and I'm not sure if its still a sticky anymore - but there was one thread where the sympathy shown to the owner was overwhelming and even years after it was started still sticks in my mind.


Just saying

LusciousLuce

I think most people here have expressed sympathy for the OP's loss. I can't imagine anyone would not feel that; after all, surely everyone here is a pet owner (can't think why else anyone would visit this section otherwise) and have likely experienced the heartbreak of losing a pet.

If the OP had posted just to express his grief I'm sure he'd have been inundated with support and expressions of sympathy. But the purpose of his post was to say he thought the vet practice was to blame for his dog's death and to look for advice on that matter. Just because everyone reading and answering his post has disagreed with his stance does not equal a lack of empathy. That isn't what he was asking for.

It's very very sad what happened and distressing for him because it was so sudden and couldn't have been anticipated. That does not mean someone has to be blamed, however.

Feral_Moon

iammumtoone wrote: »

regarding the time difference of half an hour its not going to make much difference in the scheme of things.

Have you a copy of the notes does it definitely read

"last eaten this morning at 10 am after his meal"

I wonder if the word sick has been left out and should read

last eaten this morning at 10am sick after his meal

This would be a big mistake but again is only relevant if this fact contributed to his passing, something which the autopsy will help to determine.

Exactly this! And the missing word is irrelevant on computer notes as all staff handovers are done verbally, plus there are handwritten hospital notes attached to the cages listing treatments, observation, timings etc so nobody would have been in any doubt as to why the dog was in there.

To the OP if a dog vomits its entire stomach contents then it is absolutely NOT bloat and withholding water following him being sick wasn't a very sensible thing to do (imagine how you would feel if you weren't allowed to drink hardly any water after being sick) and is what led to the dehydration and the need to be placed on fluid therapy.

Feral_Moon

telboy82 wrote: »

Ok sorry ive been away but one poster was right, within half a day of him dying I did come here worked up and upset blaming the vet, I apologize for this I should of waited I can understand how me coming here with such a subject and what I said would upset people, I promise that was never my intention, out of the shock and pain I needed people to talk, and hopefully find some find some guidance, I thank you all for your input and questions, some question are hard to answer so il try my best. Lets continue...

Also yes the dog get did ill my care, I believe throwing up his breakfast was what made him il, no underlying issues what so ever were found, he was in my care for around 6 1/2 hours and his condition didnt deteriorate in that time, he was very thirsty and lethargic but because of being sick and not having enough water in his body, he hadnt drunk after his breakfast yet and not since the evening before, just the small amounts I was letting him have after being sick, as I said before I was giving him water which he was happy to drink but I didnt want to give him too much until the vet saw him, I didnt rush him to an emergency vet before this because of the trust at our vets and he wasnt deteriorating while I was watching him and letting him drink small amounts of water, so in my mind he was stable and fine just thirsty and lethargic from being sick, but wanted him checked over to make sure.
But lets clear up about this money talk, I can raise and investigation with RVC and I intend to, this will cost me nothing, but from what I can find its very unlikely that will find any mis conduct at all as to be honest vets can literally get away with anything, and im sorry accidents happen isnt quite fair, If I did take the vets to court to claim all that im able to claim is what I paid or him, the cost of that treatment and his cremation, and any days holiday my wife has lost last week and this week if lucky, so in all it does not make sense to make a claim because if I lose and have to pay their fees it could cost me tens of thousands of pounds, has this scared me off? not yet, and this is exactly how and why nothing gets changed, I think the dogs welfare acts go back to 1966 and many people are trying to get it updated.

I believe which most likely can never be confirmed is that after he was sick bringing up his entire breakfast which also emptied his stomach of any remaining water in the food,cause a reaction called "Hypernatraemia", now this is caused by a water and sodium imbalance, this can be caused by a dog licking table salt which raise his levels of sodium which is dangerous and needs water fluids to correct the balance.
My dog i believe had a water im balance from being sick, this also happens when a dog has diarrhea and loses lots of water, they need the balance correcting, either by removing sodium from the animal or adding water, firstly by offering water orally if its the water they need, i they cant drink then water solution 5% dextrose or similar but its water.
So after telling the vet he had been sick his whole breakfast and and only had small amounts of water, and you can clearly see his thirsty and ive told them his thirsty, id assume even they would conclude the dog needs water regardless and should of been considered, thats what they treated him for last time, water loss.
So if there are any vets on here id like them to answer this, if you know a dog has no water and been sick all his meal would assume of your extensive costly training that my dog needed more water in his body or more salt? in fact I bet from that information alone even some the other readers here would say he needed water, just an assumption, also lets not forget that when administering IV fluids its important to get the correct fluid or you will not help matters just make them worse causing more serious injuries and pain and death, now before using these fluids you are supposed to carry out the standard blood tests and most importantly the Biochemistry Profile test that all vets carry out, this test is easy to and is vital it can pin point where to treat an animal most times and also tells you all the body chemical levels like Salt etc, this test would o said if my dog needed water or salt, it would of told them enough to sae my dog im sure.
Well the form says a "Biochemistry not available as blood machine unable to read sample when pcv too high".
Seriously they they are saying no reading because he had too many red blood sell, thats a joke right, there machine couldnt get a blood reading, that is a very important piece o equipment i cant understand how it cant get a reading. This test has a extremly high this is what is said about this simple basic test:

Description: The serum chemistry profile is one of the most important initial tests that is commonly performed. A blood sample is collected from the patient. The blood is then separated into a cell layer and serum layer by spinning the sample at high speeds in a machine called a centrifuge. The serum layer is drawn off and a variety of compounds are then measured. These measurements aid in assessing the function of various organs and body systems.
Diagnostic Value: Very high. Sometimes a specific diagnosis may be made on the basis of a blood chemistry profile alone. More often than not, however, the profile provides information on a variety of body organs and systems, giving the doctor an indication of where a problem might be located. The profile can be extremely helpful in determining which of the many other diagnostic tests might be beneficial.
Risks to Patient: Virtually none, provided that the blood is collected under sterile conditions by a trained professional.
Relative Cost: Relatively low when a group of test are run as one panel.


So anyway ok the machine doesnt work so she had to make a decision on fluids to use, not try a bowl of water first, going back over everything that she clearly didnt listen tome she made the clever decision to put him on fluids anyway.
He is given fluids to correct his imbalance they are two 1litre bags are " Aqupharm no1" which is sodium chloride "NaCl high rate" its safe to say he wasnt getting his water and that sodium overload was of caused him much pain even death.

Lets talk about pain, so to sedate my dog they used a opium based painkiller called "Vetergesic" my dog has never had this, this wasnt to relieve pain it was to sedate him, why not use a mild sedative, this drug is very strong look it up vets having been causing animal deaths all over the country with this drug, its opium based and very addictive from the first use, most dogs ive read about get one injection and hit the deck struggling to breath and move some get put down not long after some takes weeks to recover and never quite the same, my dog had 6 injections at east on his form I just need to get the total doses, also these opium type drugs should not be mixed so after having all this one type of opioid drug a fair amount of it why inject him with a different type of opioid drug "Methadome" at 2am and leave him until he was found dead at 6am, mixing these drugs together would of been fighting each other in his body causing all kinds of reactions in his body.
They also gave him "ranitidine" this isnt even a drug approved for animals its called zantac, its for treating ulcers and stops the stops the stomach producing acid. Problem is no acid in the stomach means he can absorb drugs from his stomach and why give him this anyway. I could say more about these drugs but its easy to lok up and I could be forever explaining why I think these drugs shouldnt of been used, especially the IV fluids. I dont know what the post mortem report will have on it, its inconclusive but at least its done, and know they couldnt find anything wrong with him, Its obvious he didnt get the care he needed through negligence and mis conduct and was clearly misdiagnosed and his welfare suffered because of this, so thats all I can write or now I may not reply straight away it may even take a few day until ive got the autopsy report in hand and all the correct doses, hopefully they will tell me this when I ask tomorrow, so I think even when ive got all his information about his treatment and doses together there will be a long letter to the vets and RVC, making a complaint first, up until that time il keep seeking advice, if there is a case which im feeling there is then they need to be pursued as we are no longer living in 1966 and no animal deserves to be treated like it is.

This post highlights fantastically how Google can be a dangerous tool in the hands of the uneducated.

Feral_Moon

telboy82 wrote: »

because I was worried about possible bloat after him being sick, I didnt restrict the dogs water, i used to not put any down during or straight after his meals for about an hour each day if a big dog drinks water just after its meals it can get bloat, thats why id restrict his water, other than that he drunk plenty through out the day. And that is advised to do on this breed and others. so taking his water away at meal times for and hour just over is not a bad thing to do at all, ask any vet. It wasnt restricted it like your making it sound, you make it sound like i wasnt giving him any, he drunk quite a bit of water while with me but he didnt want to stop so i had to keep restricting him, 6 and 1/2 hours is a long time to watch a thirsty dog, should i of let him get bloat for sure by letting him gulp down water and air continuesly because of his brought on thirst from being sick, no, I should of handled it carefully like i did.

1) if he threw up all his breakfast then he DIDN'T have bloat. Dry wretching or small amounts of frothy liquid are indicative of bloat. When a dog has bloat it's stomach becomes twisted (gastric torsion) restricting blood supply, hence why it's a medical emergency. If the vet even so much as suspected a case of bloat you'd have been asked to come in immediately and, in the meantime, the nurses would be prepping theatre awaiting your arrival.

The fact you were asked to come in later that day for a normal consultation just shows there was no urgent need to be seen. It's not unusual for dogs to vomit shortly after eating, especially when they have no access to water (most dogs who vomit up an entire meal will just go on to re-eat it anyway) and you've indication this has happened previously.

2) removing access to water at any time is not a good idea. It's excessive drinking/gulping following a meal which can cause problems so just limit the amount of water available at meal times but don't remove it completely.

Dogs are more likely to get bloat from eating a large meal of dry food (especially a high grain food) once a day, exercising or running around shortly after eating, eating/drinking from raised bowls and stress.

Feral_Moon

telboy82 wrote: »

JoJo, I think your really going out of your way on this one to try deter me an make me look bad, please continue because the whole thread has all the info, and by reading from the start all you have set out to do is make me look bad for my actions, you have no idea what could or would happen in court, also you have not listened or taken in the fact ive stated at least twice that Ive never had free pet treatment, ive always paid and thats on their records so keep saying I lie about work you dont even know me, ive already said ive never claimed a penny off the government my whole life and paid my taxes, ive never been out of work.

But you can't register and receive treatment for your pet from either RSPCA or PDSA unless you are actually in receipt of a qualifying state benefit.


https://www.rspca.org.uk/local/harmsworth-memorial-animal-hospital/aboutus


https://www.pdsa.org.uk/vet-services/eligibility