Expired ID - not proof of age?

JReacher1

daytona0 wrote: »

Funnily enough, a passport is typically valid for 10 years (mine is currently 2015 to 2026 it seems).... Costs about £80 roughly to renew it.

That's £8 a year you need to save up, or 66p a month.

As simple as that to end up with a valid ID and prevent the possibility of an awkward exchange whenever you try to buy alcohol in a pub, club, off licence etc.

But hey ho, each to their own!

I don't think this is realistic. I would be amazed if anyone when they got a passport saved £8 a year for ten years to cover the cost of the renewal.

It seems sensible to apply for a passport when you know you will need one in the next few months. There is no point buying one if you aren't planning on going abroad anytime soon.

Also carrying a passport around with you all the time for ID purposes is an absolute pain.

marliepanda

JReacher1 wrote: »

I don't think this is realistic. I would be amazed if anyone when they got a passport saved £8 a year for ten years to cover the cost of the renewal.

It seems sensible to apply for a passport when you know you will need one in the next few months. There is no point buying one if you aren't planning on going abroad anytime soon.

Also carrying a passport around with you all the time for ID purposes is an absolute pain.

Pretty sure this is still a thing?

https://www.citizencard.com

daytona0

JReacher1 wrote: »

I don't think this is realistic. I would be amazed if anyone when they got a passport saved £8 a year for ten years to cover the cost of the renewal.

It seems sensible to apply for a passport when you know you will need one in the next few months. There is no point buying one if you aren't planning on going abroad anytime soon.

Also carrying a passport around with you all the time for ID purposes is an absolute pain.

Aye true, but it does put the cost of a passport into perspective...

The-Truth

Sicard wrote: »

Just to put into perspective on how silly this situation really is; if a crowd of say 15 people go into a supermarket to buy some alcohol and they're at the checkout with one of them paying and this assistant is worried about being fined £5000 if one of them is underage do they check everyone's id?

I'll take this further; an 18 year old goes into Argos and buys a set of kitchen knives accompanied by other people. Does the assistant check everyone's id?

Or a 16 year old buys cigarettes from a shop with others in tow. Does the assistant check everyone's id?

When I was a teenager myself and some mates went into a pub at 15 and got served pints of beer. I also bought cigs at 12. This was in the early 60s. How times have changed. For the better? Debatable.

Do you disagree with the new laws or the way the people on the front line have to implement them?

If it's the latter then I have the perfect solution for you.

Sicard

The-Truth wrote: »

Do you disagree with the new laws or the way the people on the front line have to implement them?

If it's the latter then I have the perfect solution for you.

Both. Why on earth should you have to have an id of 25 years old and over to prove you're 18? It doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't an expired passport be valid enough either? You've had to prove certain facts in order to obtain the passport in the first place. The mere fact it's out of date shouldn't matter one iota because it's got your photo and DOB on it for all to see.

On the matter of implemention by checkout staff: As already mentioned the purchaser is of age to buy alcohol, but is in the company of someone who looks not to be. The potentially underage person isn't buying the product but just happens to be in the company of the buyer. Why on earth should that matter? To me it isn't logical because it signifies the purchaser is very probably of an irresponsible nature and could possibly ply the underager with drink or at least allow them to consume said product. And on that matter it isn't illegal for someone underage to consume alcohol at home anyway.

Okay, on the matter of alcohol consumption. Let's go back to the Blair years who in his ultimate wisdom decided to do away with the licensing laws and allow drinking 24/7. What happened? The newspapers were full of pictures of youths and girls smashed out of their brains honking up in the streets, sprawled out all over the place semi-conscious.

Which is better? Selling a bottle of beer to someone of age who is accompanied by someone potentially underage or teenagers drinking themselves to an early death on a Friday or Saturday night?

Go on, give me your solution and don't keep me in suspense.

The-Truth

Sicard wrote: »

BGo on, give me your solution and don't keep me in suspense.

You write out a legal document stating that should the person who serves you/others that you then will be willing to pay any fine they get, sig it and give that particular person a copy.

And I won't just accept a sarcastic reply saying you've done it. I want video proof!

easy

Frankly, I think it is utterly ridiculous expecting checkout staff to second-guess what someone is going to do with a bottle of wine/whiskey/cider whatever.

The law says that persons over 18 are allowed to buy alcohol. Therefore, if I can prove that I am over 18, and I have the money to make the purchase I should be allowed to make the purchase, regardless of who is with me at the time.
Of course I should be able to produce ID, and my photograph on that ID should be pretty easily recognisable. If I decide to change my hair colour/style significantly, then the onus should be on me to get my ID document updated.
The shop assistant must be at liberty to refuse if he/she doubts the ID actually belongs to me, but it is ridiculous to ask him/her to make a judgement about what I intend to do with the goods once they are in my possession.

In any case, as Sicard said earlier

it isn't illegal for someone underage to consume alcohol at home anyway

Just to add another point into this argument - Why do Sainsbury insist that an over 18 y.o. signs for an online shopping delivery - even one which DOESN'T have anything alcoholic in it?
During school holidays when my 17 y.o. son is at home it would be far more convenient to me to have the shopping delivered during my working day, but I can't do that, because they won't accept his signature. So he can legally get married, join the armed forces, drive a car on the road (potentially a lethal weapon), but not sign to say that a load of bread milk and vegetables has been delivered.
Ludicrous

daytona0

Sicard wrote: »

Both. Why on earth should you have to have an id of 25 years old and over to prove you're 18? It doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't an expired passport be valid enough either? You've had to prove certain facts in order to obtain the passport in the first place. The mere fact it's out of date shouldn't matter one iota because it's got your photo and DOB on it for all to see.

An expired passport is effectively the government saying that the passport is void. Whether it makes sense or not, why is it worth potentially !!!!ing off the government just to keep Joe Bloggs happy when he tries to buy a 6 pack on a Friday night with an expired passport?

Plus, if shops accept it as identity, it would make much more sense to tamper with an expired passport than a live one... Could give rise to more identity fraud, especially if you use a 10, 20 or even 30 year old passport which staff may not be familiar with.

On the matter of implemention by checkout staff: As already mentioned the purchaser is of age to buy alcohol, but is in the company of someone who looks not to be. The potentially underage person isn't buying the product but just happens to be in the company of the buyer. Why on earth should that matter? To me it isn't logical because it signifies the purchaser is very probably of an irresponsible nature and could possibly ply the underager with drink or at least allow them to consume said product. And on that matter it isn't illegal for someone underage to consume alcohol at home anyway.

It is illegal to sell to someone under 18. Laws about drinking at home or with meals is irrelevant.

Whether the checkout staff are in the right or wrong RE: who is shopping with the adult, there is one key thing to remember:

The shop doesn't have to sell you the alcohol at all!

Can't see why people are debating beyond that... Its just one of them, learn what might happen and keep minors (or young adults without ID) away from the till whilst purchasing alcohol!

Okay, on the matter of alcohol consumption. Let's go back to the Blair years who in his ultimate wisdom decided to do away with the licensing laws and allow drinking 24/7. What happened? The newspapers were full of pictures of youths and girls smashed out of their brains honking up in the streets, sprawled out all over the place semi-conscious.

Sounds like a Saturday night in Liverpool. What's your point?

The newspapers were always going to spin a story out of it! Granted I may be wrong, but I would wager that what happened during the Blair years was no worse than what you see these days at the weekend in major cities across the UK. You can drink till 6am round here on certain days! That's not far away from the 24/7 drinking!

Which is better? Selling a bottle of beer to someone of age who is accompanied by someone potentially underage or teenagers drinking themselves to an early death on a Friday or Saturday night?

Go on, give me your solution and don't keep me in suspense.

May I inquire as to why you have asked a very biased comparison question? I mean, the way you phrased it pretty much means that you could not realistically say that the latter was better!

I don't like questions which try and steer me to think a certain way. That's what the media do and you have to take a lot of it with a pinch of salt.

I would say that the latter is better, but then again it brings up a completely different scenario because everyone in a club has theoretically been vetted for age, expired passport or not (especially with big fines knocking around for unscrupulous clubs). With the bottle of beer at home scenario, however, it will give rise to more underage drinking at home... So there's a bit of a difference in situations, with the bottle of beer being the least dangerous IN THE SHORT TERM.

unholyangel

easy wrote: »

Just to add another point into this argument - Why do Sainsbury insist that an over 18 y.o. signs for an online shopping delivery - even one which DOESN'T have anything alcoholic in it?
During school holidays when my 17 y.o. son is at home it would be far more convenient to me to have the shopping delivered during my working day, but I can't do that, because they won't accept his signature. So he can legally get married, join the armed forces, drive a car on the road (potentially a lethal weapon), but not sign to say that a load of bread milk and vegetables has been delivered.
Ludicrous

Unless theres been a recent change or your location isn't accurate, your son cannot get married without your permission until he is 18 (unless he comes to Scotland where the law is different).

Its very likely just a blanket policy to protect themselves when they sell a wide range of age restricted products (knives, medications etc). But basically, your son lacks legal capacity to enter most contracts - which is an essential part to any legally binding contract.

Sicard wrote: »

Both. Why on earth should you have to have an id of 25 years old and over to prove you're 18?

Unless I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, you've misunderstood. The challenge 25 policy is to ask anyone who looks under 25 for ID that proves they're over 18. You don't need an ID that says you're over 25.

slashlover

Sicard wrote: »

Which is better? Selling a bottle of beer to someone of age who is accompanied by someone potentially underage or teenagers drinking themselves to an early death on a Friday or Saturday night?

Go on, give me your solution and don't keep me in suspense.

You start with a bottle of beer, what if the purchaser wanted a crate of beer? Two crates? Three? It'd be easy for the person of age to be buying for the underager and be the CAUSE of teenagers drinking themselves to an early death.

I've sold to people 25 plus and then watched them go outside and hand it over to 15 year olds. We called 101 but with no CCTV outside we can't prove it Staff have to do what they can and rules have to be set.

(I'm in Scotland and there is a huge focus here, with far more restrictive laws.)