Trees & cracks

kilby_007

We've been looking for houses for some time. We tried to purchase a property last October that was advertised at a very good price but we were beaten by a cash buyer. Since then, it transpires that it was actually a family member of the vendor's nephew who was the purchaser. I get the feeling that nobody else was going to buy that house no matter how much they offered (we offered 5K above asking price) so I'm not sure why it was put on the market in the first place (some legalities perhaps).

The previous purchaser applied for planning permission to extend at the back of the house and to have a large poplar tree (with die-back) that was under a TPO removed from the front of the property. The extension was approved about 10 days ago and the tree removal has been motioned but still pending approval. The previous purchaser pulled out about a week ago, just after the planning permission was passed, so we agreed to proceed at our previous offer, although we were more than a little suspicious at the circumstances.

We instructed solicitors and then I started doing a bit more digging yesterday and found a document on the local planning website with a structural report that was done to justify removing the tree at the front of the property. The report mentions "movement" cracks in 5 areas of the property (some slight, some "obvious") which are "likely to be a result of ground movement although not confirmed" and it further states that the tree roots are in the zone of influence on the house. It also suggests that a drain survey is carried out to look for cracks around the area of movement.

This is the first I knew about the issues (the estate agents were not informed) and I'm now wondering how worried we should be and whether we should a) walk away or b) ask the vendor to have the structural defects investigated further and rectified before proceeding. Option c) would be to do further surveys out of our own pocket but to be honest I don't see why we should pay to get this resolved when the vendor already knows about it and we haven't actually purchased the property yet.

My worry is that the "s" word (subsidence) comes up and then it's game over (lending/insurance/peace of mind). Does anybody have any experience in this area?

Doozergirl

If you want a tree removed that has a TPO then you need to justify why it has to come down. *All houses move* - this is a very simple fact. The older a house is, the more it will have moved. You won't find a plumb wall in a 1930s house, less in a Victorian house; even older, even wonkier! What is a problem is excessive movement.

We have trees close by and our structural engineer has said that there are some signs of movement in the loft, but it's absolutely nothing to worry about. It's an old house but it is absolutely solid.

Is/was this tree potentially interfering with the desire for an extension? If it is, then I would suggest that they could have made things sound worse than they are in order to get rid of it. I can't see why anyone would spend money on the planning application fee and drawings when they think there is subsidence and then pull out. After all, they had this report written themselves in order to make the application! What might be a reason for pulling out is not being granted that tree removal! If the previous buyer was looking at it purely as a development opportunity, their plans may be scuppered.

You can ask a structural engineer to just come out and look, without producing a report, which will cost a couple of hours perhaps in time and save you some money on a full report and on outlaying on a full survey initially if you are worried. Perhaps you could even call the structural engineer who wrote the document, if it was one? They might just talk to you about it if you were otherwise instructing them to look again for you.

Drain surveys are also always a good idea if you're buying an old house as they are often compromised by now. Costs about £100 and is really useful.

You can ask questions directly to the vendor via your solicitor as well.

tpbs

Depending on the location of the property, some areas are more likely to suffering subsidence due to trees & the soil. I would recommend you seek your own advice from a qualified Arboriculturalist Consultant in the area. They will be able to review the structural engineers report & make recommendations for managing the vegetation if necessary. If the vendor is after planning permission & would like the TPO removed off the tree they may have thrown in subsidence issues to argue the case so I would perhaps not worry about it until it has been investigated. If the tree is causing subsidence then the vendor should have involved his building insurers who would then instruct site investigations, a period of monitoring at the property as well as an arboricultural report. It is unlikely the council will allow its removal without evidence. It is possible to sell a property with an ongoing subsidence claim with the new owners taking over the existing policy. Hope this helps.

tpbs

Doozergirl wrote: »

If you want a tree removed that has a TPO then you need to justify why it has to come down. *All houses move* - this is a very simple fact. The older a house is, the more it will have moved. You won't find a plumb wall in a 1930s house, less in a Victorian house; even older, even wonkier! What is a problem is excessive movement.

We have trees close by and our structural engineer has said that there are some signs of movement in the loft, but it's absolutely nothing to worry about. It's an old house but it is absolutely solid.

Is/was this tree potentially interfering with the desire for an extension? If it is, then I would suggest that they could have made things sound worse than they are in order to get rid of it. I can't see why anyone would spend money on the planning application fee and drawings when they think there is subsidence and then pull out. After all, they had this report written themselves in order to make the application! What might be a reason for pulling out is not being granted that tree removal! If the previous buyer was looking at it purely as a development opportunity, their plans may be scuppered.

You can ask a structural engineer to just come out and look, without producing a report, which will cost a couple of hours perhaps in time and save you some money on a full report and on outlaying on a full survey initially if you are worried. Perhaps you could even call the structural engineer who wrote the document, if it was one? They might just talk to you about it if you were otherwise instructing them to look again for you.

Drain surveys are also always a good idea if you're buying an old house as they are often compromised by now. Costs about £100 and is really useful.

You can ask questions directly to the vendor via your solicitor as well.

Good advice Doozergirl. I've just seen it after posting mine.

kilby_007

The house is 50 years old, so not that old. The tree did not get in the way of the extension (it is on the other side of the house). I have spoken to the surveyor and he wouldn't really make any statements around the movement and just said it's in his report, but he has quoted me for a full survey and suggested that we do a drains survey. He also said that the other houses along the row of trees look to have been affected in the same way.

If I was to go ahead and get a survey and the results say similar (i.e. "movement" caused by trees) then where do I stand in terms of insurance/mortgage and structural issues?

keith969

I'd be concerned about a poplar tree anywhere near my house. They grow very tall and need a big root system to support them.

kilby_007

Oh, and the report also states that the surveyor suspects that the utility extension was built on shallower foundations than the main house and is "rotating" away. The previous buyer had planned to continue that wall upwards as a supporting wall for the upstairs extension so it might be that this would have to be demolished and rebuilt.

kilby_007

keith969 wrote: »

I'd be concerned about a poplar tree anywhere near my house. They grow very tall and need a big root system to support them.

The tree is about 15 metres from the house I'd estimate. The tree itself is massive - at least 25 metres if not more. I got it wrong previously - she applied to have the lower branches of the poplar tree cut back to "raise the crown height", not remove it altogether. She's applied to have a sycamore removed though, and 2 lime trees cut back too. All about the same distance from the house.

tpbs

kilby_007 wrote: »

If I was to go ahead and get a survey and the results say similar (i.e. "movement" caused by trees) then where do I stand in terms of insurance/mortgage and structural issues?

It would most likely be a condition of your mortgage that you seek specialist advice from a registered arboricultural consultant. A report for mortgage/insurance purposes is what you would need (no more than £350) & as long as you carry out the recommended works you would be covered in future.

kilby_007

Just had a quote from an aborticulturalist - £95/tree to tell us if the roots are likely to be under the house. I think that's probably a good start as it's the cheapest of the surveys. The drains survey with CCTV is £200 + VAT. I'm still debating whether to ask the estate agent to ask the vendor if they will pay for this or meet us half way.

Helen2k8

Worth bearing in mind that a tree - especially of that size - is pumping a heck of a lot of water out of the ground. If it gets chopped down, suddenly that water is staying in the ground and could find somewhere else to go.