Cost of calling 0844 numbers?

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  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
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    edited 28 December 2015 at 2:58PM
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    Since 1 July 2015 it is much easier to find the cost of calling all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. The call cost consists of two parts, each separately declared.

    Your landline or mobile provider sets a single Access Charge covering calls to all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. This varies from 2p to 12p per minute from landlines or 5p to 45p per minute from mobiles. If you are paying a high rate, your provider is ripping you off.

    The organisation you are calling sets their Service Charge by their choice of number and must declare it in close proximity to the number everywhere it is advertised or promoted. Those who fail to do so can be reported to the Advertising Standards Authority. The Service Charge can also be looked up at: http://checkit.uboss.com/.

    The Service Charge can be:
    - up to 7p per minute or per call for 084 numbers,
    - up to 13p per minute or per call for 087 numbers,
    - up to £6 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 09 numbers, or,
    - up to £7 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 118 numbers.
    When you have both the Access Charge and the Service Charge, the total call cost can be calculated at: http://giffgaff.screet.co.uk/call/.

    All 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers are premium rate. The premium is the additional Service Charge paid to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. If the Service Charge is more than 7p per minute, or per call, the number is further defined as a Controlled Premium Rate Service (CPRS) and subject to additional PhonepayPlus regulation.
  • derrick
    derrick Posts: 7,424 Forumite
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    Ian011 wrote: »
    Since 1 July 2015 it is much easier to find the cost of calling all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. The call cost consists of two parts, each separately declared.

    Your landline or mobile provider sets a single Access Charge covering calls to all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. This varies from 2p to 12p per minute from landlines or 5p to 45p per minute from mobiles. If you are paying a high rate, your provider is ripping you off.

    The organisation you are calling sets their Service Charge by their choice of number and must declare it in close proximity to the number everywhere it is advertised or promoted. Those who fail to do so can be reported to the Advertising Standards Authority. The Service Charge can also be looked up at: http://checkit.uboss.com/.

    The Service Charge can be:
    - up to 7p per minute or per call for 084 numbers,
    - up to 13p per minute or per call for 087 numbers,
    - up to £6 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 09 numbers, or,
    - up to £7 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 118 numbers.
    When you have both the Access Charge and the Service Charge, the total call cost can be calculated at: http://giffgaff.screet.co.uk/call/.

    All 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers are premium rate. The premium is the additional Service Charge paid to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. If the Service Charge is more than 7p per minute, or per call, the number is further defined as a Controlled Premium Rate Service (CPRS) and subject to additional PhonepayPlus regulation.

    Not when using a 118 service as they can and do use a connection charge which completely wipes out the "two part" suggestion as it makes it 3 parts!

    Example: -
    Maureen 118 212, (http://www.hellomaureen.co.uk ),: - "Calls to 118 212 cost £2.75 per call plus £2.99 per minute (minimum 1 minute charge), plus your phone company's access charge.
    Calls to international 118 412 cost £1.88 per call plus £2.57 per minute (minimum 1 minute charge), plus your phone company's access charge.    "


    118 434 constantly advertise on LBC radio, "£3.99 plus £1.99ppm plus your providers access charges"

    If there are only supposed to be 2 seperate parts, how come the 118 providers are getting away with 3 parts?

    .
    Don`t steal - the Government doesn`t like the competition


  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
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    edited 28 December 2015 at 11:32PM
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    derrick wrote: »
    Not when using a 118 service as they can and do use a connection charge which completely wipes out the "two part" suggestion as it makes it 3 parts!

    If there are only supposed to be 2 separate parts, how come the 118 providers are getting away with 3 parts?
    Connection fees (as in the old style connection fees previously levied by some landline providers) are no longer permitted for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

    I already mentioned above that the Service Charge can be:
    - up to £6 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 09 numbers, or,
    - up to £7 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 118 numbers.

    The Access Charge is always charged per minute, usually with a one minute minimum call cost, and usually billed per second after the first minute.

    There are four types of Service Charge. This element of the call cost is charged:
    - per call (irrespective of call length)
    - per minute (billed per second from the start of the call)
    - per call, plus per minute (from the start of the call), or,
    - per call, plus per minute (after 60 seconds).

    It is not correct to call any part of this a "connection fee".

    derrick wrote: »
    Maureen 118 212, (http://www.hellomaureen.co.uk/ ),: - "Calls to 118 212 cost £2.75 per call plus £2.99 per minute (minimum 1 minute charge), plus your phone company's access charge."
    This price point does not appear in Ofcom's official list of 80 approved Service Charge price points. Instead, it is listed as
    "£5.74 per call, plus £2.99 per minute (after 60 seconds)".

    derrick wrote: »
    "Calls to international 118 412 cost £1.88 per call plus £2.57 per minute (minimum 1 minute charge), plus your phone company's access charge."
    This price point does not appear in Ofcom's official list of 80 approved Service Charge price points. Instead, it is listed as
    "£4.45 per call, plus £2.57 per minute (after 60 seconds)".

    derrick wrote: »
    118 434 constantly advertise on LBC radio, "£3.99 plus £1.99ppm plus your providers access charges."
    This Service Charge price point is listed by Ofcom as
    "£3.99 per call, plus £1.99 per minute (from the start of the call)".


    To each of the above, callers must also add the applicable Access Charge set by their landline or mobile provider.


    Ofcom's approved Service Charge price points clearly express the minimum Service Charge, "per call", and the separate "per minute" part - the latter always starting from zero pence, even if delayed by 60 seconds.

    Several directory enquiries providers seem to be expressing the Service Charge in a different way, perhaps to try to make the calls appear cheaper than they really are.
  • derrick
    derrick Posts: 7,424 Forumite
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    Ian011 wrote: »
    Connection fees (as in the old style connection fees previously levied by some landline providers) are no longer permitted for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

    I already mentioned above that the Service Charge can be:
    - up to £6 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 09 numbers, or,
    - up to £7 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute for 118 numbers.

    The Access Charge is always charged per minute, usually with a one minute minimum call cost, and usually billed per second after the first minute.

    There are four types of Service Charge. This element of the call cost is charged:
    - per call (irrespective of call length)
    - per minute (billed per second from the start of the call)
    - per call, plus per minute (from the start of the call), or,
    - per call, plus per minute (after 60 seconds).

    It is not correct to call any part of this a "connection fee".



    This price point does not appear in Ofcom's official list of 80 approved Service Charge price points. Instead, it is listed as
    "£5.74 per call, plus £2.99 per minute (after 60 seconds)".



    This price point does not appear in Ofcom's official list of 80 approved Service Charge price points. Instead, it is listed as
    "£4.45 per call, plus £2.57 per minute (after 60 seconds)".



    This Service Charge price point is listed by Ofcom as
    "£3.99 per call, plus £1.99 per minute (from the start of the call)".


    To each of the above, callers must also add the applicable Access Charge set by their landline or mobile provider.


    Ofcom's approved Service Charge price points clearly express the minimum Service Charge, "per call", and the separate "per minute" part - the latter always starting from zero pence, even if delayed by 60 seconds.

    Several directory enquiries providers seem to be expressing the Service Charge in a different way, perhaps to try to make the calls appear cheaper than they really are.

    So are these companies breaking the law and if so is there anywhere to report them that actually has the backbone to do anything about them, because irrespective of you saying,"It is not correct to call any part of this a "connection fee", this kind of statement suggests to Joe Public that the "£2.75 per call" element of their charge IS a connection charge by any other name "Calls to 118 212 cost £2.75 per call plus £2.99 per minute (minimum 1 minute charge), plus your phone company's access charge." Making a 3 part charge!


    The examples I have given are rife in this sector and it appears the regulators do nothing to stop it.

    .
    Don`t steal - the Government doesn`t like the competition


  • derrick
    derrick Posts: 7,424 Forumite
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    Ian011 wrote: »
    Connection fees (as in the old style connection fees previously levied by some landline providers) are no longer permitted for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.


    It is not correct to call any part of this a "connection fee".



    This price point does not appear in Ofcom's official list of 80 approved Service Charge price points. Instead, it is listed as
    "£5.74 per call, plus £2.99 per minute (after 60 seconds)". Plus your applicable Access Charge set by the landline or mobile provider making it a 3 parts not 2!



    This price point does not appear in Ofcom's official list of 80 approved Service Charge price points. Instead, it is listed as
    "£4.45 per call, plus £2.57 per minute (after 60 seconds)". Plus your applicable Access Charge set by the landline or mobile provider making it a 3 parts not 2!



    This Service Charge price point is listed by Ofcom as
    "£3.99 per call, plus £1.99 per minute (from the start of the call)". Plus your applicable Access Charge set by the landline or mobile provider making it a 3 parts not 2!


    To each of the above, callers must also add the applicable Access Charge set by their landline or mobile provider.


    Ofcom's approved Service Charge price points clearly express the minimum Service Charge, "per call", and the separate "per minute" part - the latter always starting from zero pence, even if delayed by 60 seconds.

    Several directory enquiries providers seem to be expressing the Service Charge in a different way, perhaps to try to make the calls appear cheaper than they really are.

    Each of your examples are a 3 part element when your own providers Access Charge is added to the mix and not a 2 part.

    The "£x.xx per call" in your examples is a connection fee by another name.

    .
    Don`t steal - the Government doesn`t like the competition


  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
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    edited 29 December 2015 at 3:08PM
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    There are two elements to the call cost. One is the Access Charge set by the caller's landline or mobile provider. The other is the Service Charge set by the organisation being called and dependent wholly on their choice of number.

    The Access Charge is charged per minute (but usually billed per second after the first minute).

    The Service Charge may be charged per call, per minute, or a combination of both.

    The Service Charge to vote on the 'X-Factor' is "35p per call".

    The Service Charge to call the charity 'National Bullying Helpline' is "7p per minute".

    The Service Charge to call a particular 118 service is "£5.74 per call plus £2.49 per minute (after 60 seconds)". If the call is less than 60 seconds, the Service Charge is £5.74 for the call.

    There are no connection fees, merely Service Charges charged per call, per minute or a combination of both.

    The official list of Service Charge price points can be found here:
    http://www.icc-uk.com/NGCS-Price-Points.php
    A more accessible version can be found in the four drop down lists at:
    http://giffgaff.screet.co.uk/call/

    ASA and PhonepayPlus are tasked with enforcing the regulations on displaying call prices.
  • derrick
    derrick Posts: 7,424 Forumite
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    Ian011 wrote: »
    There are two elements to the call cost. One is the Access Charge set by the caller's landline or mobile provider. The other is the Service Charge set by the organisation being called and dependent wholly on their choice of number.

    The Access Charge is charged per minute (but usually billed per second after the first minute).

    The Service Charge may be charged per call, per minute, or a combination of both.

    The Service Charge to vote on the 'X-Factor' is "35p per call".

    The Service Charge to call the charity 'National Bullying Helpline' is "7p per minute".

    The Service Charge to call a particular 118 service is "£5.74 per call plus £2.49 per minute (after 60 seconds)". If the call is less than 60 seconds, the Service Charge is £5.74 for the call.

    There are no connection fees, merely Service Charges charged per call, per minute or a combination of both.

    ASA and PhonepayPlus are tasked with enforcing the regulations on displaying call prices.


    I know all that, but it still does not get away from the fact that these companies are showing 3 elements to the charge to call these numbers, I have shown it quite clearly, you stating the rules do not detract from the fact that their cost per call, plus cost per minute, plus your phone companies access charge adds up to 3.

    The cost per call in these examples is a connection charge by another name!

    .
    Don`t steal - the Government doesn`t like the competition


  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
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    Connection fees are levied only by landline providers and only on chargeable non-inclusive calls to:
    - geographic numbers starting 01 and 02,
    - non-geographic numbers starting 03,
    - mobile numbers starting 071-075 and 077-079, and,
    - legacy numbers starting 055, 056, 070 and 076.
    The connection fee is set wholly by the caller's landline provider and retained by them.

    There are no connection fees on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

    The Service Charge may be charged per minute or may be charged per call, covering the whole call or covering the first minute of the call where additional minutes are charged at a different rate. The Service Charge is paid to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. The caller's provider sees none of this revenue. Their share of the call cost is separately declared as the Access Charge.
  • derrick
    derrick Posts: 7,424 Forumite
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    Ian011 wrote: »
    Connection fees are levied only by landline providers and only on chargeable non-inclusive calls to:
    - geographic numbers starting 01 and 02,
    - non-geographic numbers starting 03,
    - mobile numbers starting 071-075 and 077-079, and,
    - legacy numbers starting 055, 056, 070 and 076.
    The connection fee is set wholly by the caller's landline provider and retained by them.

    There are no connection fees on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

    The Service Charge may be charged per minute or may be charged per call, covering the whole call or covering the first minute of the call where additional minutes are charged at a different rate. The Service Charge is paid to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. The caller's provider sees none of this revenue. Their share of the call cost is separately declared as the Access Charge.

    I did say "connection charge by another name!"


    You really cannot see it can you?
    From my post #133 above: -

    Calls to 118 212 cost £2.75 per call
    plus £2.99 per minute     (minimum 1 minute charge),
    plus your phone company's access charge.

     Total equals 3 elements.

    These can be clearly seen in the companies advert,(link in post #133).

    The rules may say they can only use 2 elements, but by using 3 they are confusing consumers.

    I do not think the ASA covers these numbers and I have just phoned PhonepayPlus, and guess what, they are closed for "staff training".

    .
    Don`t steal - the Government doesn`t like the competition


  • Ian011
    Ian011 Posts: 2,432 Forumite
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    Where they exist (see above), connection fees are charges made by the caller's landline provider, i.e. solely by the telecoms provider connecting the call.

    Service Charges are levied by the organisation being called. As such these are neither 'connection fees' nor 'connection fees by another name'.

    It is quite permissible for the Service Charge to have a per-call and a per-minute element. These are detailed in the list linked to in an earlier post.

    I have no idea why this could be considered confusing. Just add all the elements together.
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