Cost of calling 0844 numbers?

Ypaymore

Reiki_Sue wrote: »

I was analysing my last two years virgin media phonebills last night and trying to work out why they were so expensive.

I noted that I was offered a £2 a month deal to give me free 0845 etc numbers. Now from April 2011 to December 2011 i encountered just 3 of those 0844 numbers during all those 9 months. In December 2011 i was offered that free 0845 offer and since then i have made 22 of those 0844/0843 calls (without thinking as i should have checked the 'saynoto0870' website which i do use if i remember to use it).

So i'm glad we are having this conversation, as i think since those free 0845 bundles were offered to us by various communication companies that we've continued to have been 'mugged' from right under our noses! I shall be sending an email to Ofcom about this matter as it stinks!

I also believe this is why companies want us to have our bills sent to us 'online' and not by post, as they believe there is even less chance of the public scrutinising their bills and seeing this 'robbery' occuring!

Are there any honest companies left out there?

If you have inclusive calls to 0845. They clearly dont cover calls to 0843/0844 which are a different kettle of fish. A very expensive kettle of fish at that with VM who charge top wack to call them.

scoobers

I can't understand why Virgin Media charge so much for 08 numbers, a number that's normally 1.02 pence over BT is charged at 5.10 pence by Virgin. Their cost base is the same as the other providers. Sky Talk charge the same as BT, Talk Talk have started charging higher rates now (not as high as Virgin).

analyst_2

There is a solution which I would propose here, but it a tough one, at least in the short term.

Sadly, since the 80's, Britain has increasingly become a nation of insidious fat-cat greed and it WILL destroy the nation, as we are currently witnessing. But let's not address the bankers issues here. The notion of a fair price for a fair job has been thrown right out of the window.

I highly commend the 'say no to 0870' team and their good work, but that is only a workaround and it permits the companies using revenue generating numbers like 084x and 087x to continue regardless.

Forget Ofcom, they will never be the consumer's friend and have no intention of being so. They actually represent the telecoms industry, were largely recruited from the telecoms industry where they have friends, investments and other vested interests there.

And so to THE SOLUTION
Boycott companies that offer 0844 numbers, but you must make the effort to TELL THEM SO. If everyone told them they are taking their business elsewhere they might see that the business lost is greater than the revenue gained, something that the company accountants are completely blind to on their spreadsheets.

It does actually work. I have personal experience of turning a company away from revenue generating numbers because I withdrew my order from them. I ended up speaking to the CEO who was unaware that these numbers take trade away and he then undertook to replace them with standard numbers.

Dear Sirs,
I regularly check your site as a potential supplier of a monthly order for *****. However, I note that the only telephone number I can trace for you is a 'revenue generating number'.
I am part of a growing number of consumers who will not deal with companies that use revenue generating numbers i.e. 0843/0844/0870/0871.
Sadly, your accountants will never tell you business lost because of these numbers, only the revenue gained. The great guru of business management Mr.W.Edwards Deming always said, "The most important costs to a business are the unknown and the unknowable"

So, your loss is *******'s gain. Please let me know if you drop your insidious revenue generating numbers and I shall then reconsider my position on ordering.

theloft

analyst wrote: »

There is a solution which I would propose here, but it a tough one, at least in the short term.
And so to THE SOLUTION
Boycott companies that offer 0844 numbers, but you must make the effort to TELL THEM SO. If everyone told them they are taking their business elsewhere they might see that the business lost is greater than the revenue gained, something that the company accountants are completely blind to on their spreadsheets.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, I never miss an opportunity to tell any company about their misguided strategy, if I have the misfortune to deal with any that use 0844 numbers or worse 09 numbers for example. A company with any reputation in the USA provides a Freephone number, so why do we have to put up with these rip-off outfits in the UK, In most cases they are high profile, profitable oranisations as well !!

DaveAA

scoobers wrote: »

0844 numbers are generally charged between 0.5p and 5p/min including VAT (this was when VAT was 17.5% so you have to add a bit for the VAT increase). The range holder of the 0844 number gets an out-payment depending on the tariff of the 0844 number - the higher the tariff the higher the out-payment. The range holder will then pass on part of this out-payment to who ever is using the 0844 number, the amount that is passed on is a commercial arrangement so it will vary. There may be other parties involved (e.g. a reseller) that will take a cut.

It is BT that charges between 0.5 and 5p/min for calls to 0843 and 0844 numbers. The prices are regulated. BT passes all of this money to the range holder of the 0843 or 0844 number (likewise for the up-to-10p/min call charge for 0871 and 0872 numbers): the "NTS condition" imposed on BT by Ofcom prohibits BT from making a profit on these calls.

In the case of a large user of non-geographic numbers, the range-holder may then pass some of this money directly to the user of the 084 number. In the case of small businesses using 084 numbers, this may be via a reseller who will also retain a proportion. In some cases the reseller doesn't pass any money on to the user, merely using it to reduce the charges the user would pay for service. In some cases, the user is unaware of the revenue share money that is collected from callers and is being pocketed by their number reseller.

When you call from another network, they pass the exact same amount of money on to the rangeholder as BT does, but may charge their own fees on top of the revenue share amount, thereby inflating the price the caller pays. Due to Ofcom regulation, BT are always the cheapest for calling 084 and 087 numbers. Now that BT no longer have a monopoly, this regulation will end soon.

scoobers wrote: »

I can't understand why Virgin Media charge so much for 08 numbers, a number that's normally 1.02 pence over BT is charged at 5.10 pence by Virgin.

Virgin (landline) add an access charge to the call price. This is on top of the service charge they collect on behalf of the called party. Mobile operators add a very much larger access charge.

On the other hand, BT are regulated to NOT add any extra charges. BT charge callers the service charge (a.k.a. "premium") and nothing else.

All callers to that number pay exactly the same service charge, but this charge is hidden within the total call price. Virgin add about 9p/min to the call price. Sky currently choose to not add to the call price. Mobile networks add 20p to 40p/min to the call price.

The confusion comes because phone networks tell you only the total call price. Additionally, users of these numbers quote only the regulated BT call price, which is irrelevant if you're calling from a different landline provider or from a mobile.

Under the new "unbundled tariff", phone networks will have to declare their access charge and users of these numbers will have to declare their service charge.

This is the biggest change to non-geographic numbers for decades.

Later in the year the Consumer Rights Directive will force many users of 084 and 087 numbers to scrap their number and move to one that is charged at geographic rate. They can migrate to the matching 034 or 037 number or to an 01, 02 or 033 number.

DaveAA

andymat wrote: »

Have been speaking to Herts Insurance Consultants on the phone and as an aside I asked about the claim on a page on their site that I was diverted to for a quote that the 0844 number that they ask you to call them on to finalise a quotation is free to call. I have just been told that yes, it is indeed a free number. Can this be right?

They now advertise...
From Landline: 0844 ... ....
From Mobile: 0330 ... ....
...which shows they really do not understand what 03 numbers are all about.
The 03 number will be effectively "free" for all callers with "inclusive minutes" (from landlines or mobiles) and cheaper than the 0844 number for most of the rest. Only a very small number of people will pay less to call the 0844 number.

scoobers

I know about the mechanics behind it having been working in the industry for 25+ years. TalkTalk and Sky's charges are comparable to BT's so I just don't understand why Virgin feel it necessary to charge so much more.

DaveAA wrote: »

Virgin (landline) add an access charge to the call price. This is on top of the service charge they collect on behalf of the called party. Mobile operators add a very much larger access charge.

On the other hand, BT are regulated to NOT add any extra charges. BT charge callers the service charge (a.k.a. "premium") and nothing else.

All callers to that number pay exactly the same service charge, but this charge is hidden within the total call price.

The confusion comes because phone networks tell you only the total call price. Additionally, users of these numbers quote only the regulated BT call price, which is irrelevant if you're calling from a different landline provider or from a mobile.

Under the new "unbundled tariff", phone networks will have to declare their access charge and users of these numbers will have to declare their service charge.

This is the biggest change to non-geographic numbers for decades.

Later in the year the Consumer Rights Directive will force many users of 084 and 087 numbers to scrap their number and move to one that is charged at geographic rate. They can migrate to the matching 034 or 037 number or to an 01, 02 or 033 number.

DaveAA

Because they can?

Once the "NTS condition" is removed from BT, their rates will increase significantly and so will those of Sky and TalkTalk.

scoobers

Yes, I wonder how many people realise this when they sign up to Virgin Media.
I get the impression that Sky and TalkTalk just follow BT's lead. Take the call set up fee, every time BT increase the others follow suit. I can remember before the call set up fee existed, BT used to have a minimum call charge of 5p. Those days are long gone.

DaveAA wrote: »

Because they can?

Once the "SMP condition" is removed from BT, their rates will increase significantly and so will those of Sky and TalkTalk.

DaveAA

Just wait until calls to mobiles count towards inclusive call bundles from landlines and the access charge for 084, 087 and 09 numbers is similarly included within packages.