Electric Cars

Martyn1981

muddyone wrote: »

On a journey of more than 100 miles the fuel equation falls off a cliff as I am carrying around a ton of now empty batteries.

I can't follow that. Firstly what PHEV has batteries weighing a ton? The batts on a 46kWh (41kWh useable) Zoe EV (not PHEV) only weigh 300kg. [Edit: battery pack 305kg, cell weight 180kg. M.]

Also, even if 'empty' the batts on a hybrid save fuel consumption by re-generation from braking, and low torque power boost at pull off when ICE's are extremely inefficient.

In Canada when the taxi firms switched to Prius' with 1.3kWh batts and non-plug in, they cut their fuel consumption on average from C$30 to C$13 per day.

Is it actually worth paying anything to be allowed to use chargers if you have a PHEV? Unless completely free, wouldn't it cost more?

Martyn1981

I assume this is a 'big hint' of what is to come:

Chris Grayling advises motorists to 'think hard' before buying diesel

Transport secretary recommends low-emission cars after it emerges that thousands of children breathing toxic air

Drivers should “think long and hard” before buying a diesel car and instead consider purchasing a low-emission vehicle, the transport secretary has said, as the government considers a strategy to tackle air pollution.

NigeWick

gzoom wrote: »

I think many of tje established car manufacturers are in for a shock when they eventually try to mass produce EVs and realise all their existing factories/supply chain is useless without major reinvestment. Nissan have so far apparently spent $5.6 billion on developing the Leaf.... Which lets face it looks like a Nissan Note!! So clearly building EVs isn't as simple as many people think.

I must presume you think vehicle makers are thick. Established car manufacturers have been making wheeled vehicles for a long time. Their only problem is changing the power train from internal combustion (ICE) to electric (EV). Considering that ICE vehicles have some 2,000 moving parts and EVs have a tenth of that number I can't really see a problem. The challenge is the cost of batteries. Once this reduces to US$ 100 per kWh EV's will be cheaper than ICE vehicles without subsidy. The latest projection for this is 2020 with further reductions to $80 per kWh not too long after that. I suspect that new battery technology will reduce costs even further in the next 15 years or so. Once the initial cost of an EV is less than ICE it will be all over as who wants to pay more for vehicle, servicing and fuel? Well, apart from Jeremy Clarkson and other rich folk.

gzoom

NigeWick wrote: »

I must presume you think vehicle makers are thick. Established car manufacturers have been making wheeled vehicles for a long time. Their only problem is changing the power train from internal combustion (ICE) to electric (EV). Considering that ICE vehicles have some 2,000 moving parts and EVs have a tenth of that number I can't really see a problem. The challenge is the cost of batteries. Once this reduces to US$ 100 per kWh EV's will be cheaper than ICE vehicles without subsidy. The latest projection for this is 2020 with further reductions to $80 per kWh not too long after that. I suspect that new battery technology will reduce costs even further in the next 15 years or so. Once the initial cost of an EV is less than ICE it will be all over as who wants to pay more for vehicle, servicing and fuel? Well, apart from Jeremy Clarkson and other rich folk.

Lithium ion cell packaging and chemistry has nothing in common with the combustion engine.

Who do think actually has the most experience of building lithium ion packs, a company like Tesla/Nissan who have real experience of cell degradation/packing or say VW who relies totally on an external partner to supply their cells??

Companies will get there but its not as easy as people think, Tesla I believe are on version 6 of their battery pack design.

Martyn1981

gzoom wrote: »

Companies will get there but its not as easy as people think, Tesla I believe are on version 6 of their battery pack design.

But designing and launching a new ICE takes about 7yrs and costs many billions, so it's not a fundamental change to a car companies long term operating procedures.

At least with an EV the motor package is relatively simple. The battery pack is almost (dare I say) irrelevant. The designers will have a good idea regarding the necessary volume, and can 'slap' that in as part of the floorpan structure. Future batt pack changes can simply be designed to fit 'the hole'.

Also, I believe Tesla has left a lot of its work open source deliberately to help speed up the development and rollout of EV's, so nobody has to start from scratch.

dacouch

This is quite a good deal if anyone is after an EV Leaf

http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/nissan-leaf-teckna-198pm-2yrs-199-deposit-inc-insurance-servicing-gap-ins-2623815

gzoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

At least with an EV the motor package is relatively simple. The battery pack is almost (dare I say) irrelevant.

Ask any current EV owner and I think your find the status of the battery pack is usually the main talking point. Tesal, BMW, Nissan all use very different battery chemistry and management software.

Tesla may have wasted lots of time on things like falcon wing doors on the X but they understand how to manage/design batteries better than any one else. A Nissan Leaf will suffer significantly degradation by 100k miles, where as Tesla current packs are close to 500k.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

The Jaguar iPace will be a good car, but Jaguar has absolutely zero experience of battery pack life/management to draw upon. Yes you can out source the pack production but that's like asking someone else to design the fuel injection system/exhaust/heat management for your combustion engine, which I know some manufacturers do, but ultimately having control of your production line is surely beneficial.

Its exciting times ahead but battery packs are in every way as complicated as combustion engines, and in many ways the secrets of cell chemistry is one of the MOST valuable/expensive part of EV development.

Martyn1981

gzoom wrote: »

Its exciting times ahead but battery packs are in every way as complicated as combustion engines, and in many ways the secrets of cell chemistry is one of the MOST valuable/expensive part of EV development.

Yes, but I was talking about the design and development of the car, and the battery technology doesn't really impact that if you read what I wrote. So long as the battery pack 'hole' is appropriately spec'd, then the battery itself, and changes in cell technology, won't impact the design.

So if you start designing an EV today, it shouldn't be a concern what the cell technology will be in 5yrs time. So whilst the battery technology is important, I think it's relatively insignificant in delaying the rollout of an EV.

You said that Tesla is on battery pack design 6, well if you think about an ICE, when developing a new car's engine compartment or fuel tank, the designers and engineers don't have to work their way up from a Model T to today's design.

I'm wondering if car makers will even be that concerned about the motor/inverter package or the battery pack. It may be better to buy in from specialist manufacturers, and concentrate on the rest of the car/quality.

NigeWick

gzoom wrote: »

Who do think actually has the most experience of building lithium ion packs, a company like Tesla/Nissan who have real experience of cell degradation/packing or say VW who relies totally on an external partner to supply their cells??

That's a hard one! Let me think. LG Chem, NEC, Nissan who are actually looking at buying from LG Chem, Samsung, Li Tech Battery GmbH, GS Yuasa and Etc.

As Martyn says, look what's out there, design a vehicle around an appropriately shaped hole and then whack the battery pack in. Renault used the same hole and went from 22kWh to 41kWh in just a few years.

Fortunately it's not rocket science. All vehicle manufacturers are looking at EVs because they can see the way pollution controls and electric motor and associated battery costs are going. I believe that in the next ten years EVs will make fossil burners irrelevant, as Henry Ford did to the horse and carriage. And so it will be with ICE to EV.

almillar

On a journey of more than 100 miles the fuel equation falls off a cliff as I am carrying around a ton of now empty batteries.

I know what you mean, but a PHEV is 'best of both worlds'. In a pure EV, you'd have to charge. In a non-EV you don't get to switch to just electric and take advantage of that efficiency. If you're often doing 100 mile journeys, and are rarely stuck in traffic in town centres, PHEV isn't for you. Mitsubishi dealers will even steer you towards a diesel Outlander instead if this is the case!