£67,031.92 is a frightening number indeed....

Verbatim

Congratulations on the well planned ne'er a hitch wedding. (There's another job there if ever you needed one)!
Delighted to have you back and posting. Very selfish of me as I'm sure you need a break.

Honeybug

Just de-lurking to say welcome back. It has quite thrown me not having your early morning updates :beer:

Treadingonplaymobil

Week 75: Day 3

I'm fractionally more awake today (not a lot though) and have finally got rid of the last of my guests (luckily they stayed in a hotel rather than with me, but were here every day), so attempting a bit of a return to normality today.

My budget continues to balance - more bad maths this morning but I think it's all straightened out now, and I'm richer than I expected rather than poorer. No savings pots have needed to be robbed, so everything continues to look fairly reasonable. Certainly a lot better than June did!

Something really interesting - and money-related - that's come up when chatting with DH over the past few weeks (we've been to a lot of family events) is how many more skills/experiences we'd like to give the DCs. We've spent time with a couple of particular older family members who basically left themselves hugely in debt for their children's entire childhood (and beyond) in order to give their children the experiences and skills they felt the kids deserved. Those children have both grown up to be hugely successful, confident and happy individuals, and are now providing their own children with amazing experiences without getting into debt (because they earn loads, partly down to the opportunities they were given). A lot of this is down to the fact that their parents were willing to sacrifice their own financial security. It's interesting, and completely counter to everything we read on these boards about the best lesson one can give one's children is to live within your means (in a way they also taught that, as their children were brought up to believe one 'had' to offer these opportunities, and it would be even better to offer them without debt). For my own peace of mind I couldn't repeat their decision - we want to get out of debt - but it's interesting to see a completely different attitude and response to the responsibilities of parenthood. And it's not like anyone can argue that it was a 'mistake' - their children have grown up into two of the nicest, most confident, secure individuals, and both have >£200k pa incomes. Obviously that might have happened anyway, but I somehow doubt that it would without the sports clubs, tutoring, beautiful home, opportunities to travel, socialising and networking, and 'meeting the right sort of people' opportunities they were offered. There was literally no compromise in the opportunities they were offered and the experiences they had growing up. The parents had a long slog out of debt at the point when they should have been slowing down and retiring, but are quite open about the fact that they were prepared to pay that price for their children to have the upbringing they did.

DH and I both concluded independently (and it was really funny when we were talking for the first time about this and had reached the same conclusion) that actually it's not about cutting back and cutting back and charging down the debt as quickly as possible at the expense of some of those formative experiences that will stand the children in good stead as they grow up, but about a balance between our need to reduce the debt and ensuring that they have the opportunities that we think they need. I think there is a world of difference between being childfree and cutting back absolutely everything to reduce debt and having one's LBM after having children and the responsibilities that come with that in order for them to grow up with the skills and opportunities to have amazing lives, which is really our number one priority.

Don't worry, I'm not about to abandon all debt repaying - clearing the debt is another way in which we can free up the cash to offer those experiences! - but it has shone a new light on our priorities and decisions.

I'm not going to attempt another budget rejig at this stage to free up 'life experience money' but it is something that is firmly in my mind and I'm going to be looking for ways to offer the DCs the opportunities that we want them to have. In the short term, it's about continuing to really throw myself into my work so my income can continue to grow, which is the best possible way we can balance the dual needs of the debt and our family responsibilities. I wanted to throw those thoughts out there as I know there are those of you who have had LBMs when your children are older and have received the 'benefit' of the spending, or pre-children, and I think it's interesting what a different light it can shine on debt when you are in a different life stage. I don't want to not address these things in my diary even though I know it's a little controversial, as the whole process for us has always been about our family, not just the debt, and how that all hangs together.

In other news, it looks like the wait for a builder round here is even longer than we had ever imagined, so we are going to start hunting down builders in the next few weeks and try to get some quotes in. I suppose on the bright side that if it's an 18 month wait rather than a 6 month one, we've got plenty of time to pay more off the debt before the build starts, but we'll see what happens as we start to talk to builders.

Ooh, and our bike trailer sold for a really good price yesterday (just over £200). It's cash on collection so hopefully the person will come for it soon.

To do this week
1. Pack orders for smaller business.
2. Tidy house.
3. Clear emails and deal with any firefighting that needs to be done as a result of not working for virtually a week.
4. Restart daily social media (again, a week off!).

Mini goals:
- £9.93/31 June rounding down pot.
- £3,114.53/£5,000 2018 debt repayment goal.
- £352/£932 extension pre-build costs shortfall.

PurpleFairy26

Great news on the bike trailer. Glad you!!!8217;ve had a good weekend.

enthusiasticsaver

Interesting thoughts re the lifestyle spending. Much easier to give them that lifestyle though without paying 30% or much more in many cases to debt repayments or sacrificing your own financial security.

I think as in everything a balance is what is needed between spending within your means, saving for the future and giving your children the lifestyle experiences you mention like travelling. I also don't think that handing kids everything on a plate is such a good idea and may indeed encourage a sense of entitlement which they may struggle with their whole life. Earning £200k plus is very unusual unless you live in London or some other expensive area so IMHO it would be very unwise for anyone to put their entire financial security in jeopardy to give their kids experiences they cannot afford while fostering the opinion in the kids eyes that getting in high debt and staying in it for decades assuming neither of the parents will ever get ill or lose their job is such a good idea. This may have worked for your family members but there are many out there who have paid the price for fiscal irresponsibility some struggling on this forum. There are also many of us who gave our kids lifestyle experiences without getting into debt and sacrificing our own early retirement plans, nice house etc. We sacrificed other things like changing cars every few years, state education rather than private and unless they were family trips we did not do constant trips to the theatre, weekends away as a couple until our children had left university and were forging their own path. Now we are retired it is our time although we still help out with childcare etc so it is a double win.

Starmummy

It's an interesting thought TOPM.

I know I am guilty, or rather was guilty, of getting myself into debt to give Star Child the experiences she deserved when I was a single parent. I couldn't afford the kids parties she went to, the weekly swimming lessons, the martial arts classes, the holidays, the nicer clothes. Yes paying it back now is a bit of a pain in the bottom but I don't regret any of it.

She has grown into a wonderful young lady, she is inquisitive, she likes science and art and history, she got a place on the county swimming club. It was worth it.

However, my life now is a million miles from my single parent days. Our household income is now 5 times bigger thanks to me studying hard and getting a better job and the introduction of Mr Star to the family.

I have about £12k of debt left to pay back and if I knuckled down I could have it gone in a year..but I'm not going to do that. We have travel plans this year for some once in a lifetime experiences, I will still spend what some people might see as an extortionate amount of money on Star Child's swimming each month, She wants to start another hobby too, so that will be paid for. She may need a tutor that will be paid for. Support and experience is priceless. But it's a price I will always be willing to pay.

Chrystal

Morning TOPM

Do you remember, a while ago now, EE telling you to read the diaries by Hypno? They start around 2007 and I've found them illuminating. She was in a LOT of debt, but still found ways for her children to ski, including being abroad for months (schooling given where they were) and skiing practically daily.
Her kids knew the financial situation and did without certain things willingly in order to do the things they really wanted to do.
If you haven't started to read Hypno yet do give it a go, I think you'll find her inspiring, and her ways of making money would put most of us to shame.

Treadingonplaymobil

Thank you for the interesting responses on my opportunities vs debt ponderings. It's something that's really been on my mind in recent weeks, but I didn't want to post on anything controversial before disappearing for the wedding!

I agree with enthusasticsaver that it's a massive risk to take - if for some reason one parent couldn't work or the roof fell off the house or similar, anyone who did as my relatives did would be completely up the proverbial creek.

But then I see responses like Starmummy's, the like of which often crop up on here, and can say I have honestly never seen a poster who said "I really wish I hadn't given my DC the opportunities that I did, even though it was a huge factor in my debt." So is it just the case that more and more of us with 'normal' incomes are taking on debt to try to give our DCs the opportunities that our parents offered us, because of the economic reality of the last couple of decades being so different to the one our parents lived in? I don't know the answer to that, but it's certainly something I've pondered on at length. As a child I was able to take part in clubs, partake in an expensive hobby, go on regular holidays abroad, visit nice restaurants and generally have a wealth of experiences that my DCs have not had, and my parents and step parents were all on good-but-not-outstanding incomes - <£40k household income per family unit for all but my latter teenage years - with two children in each family unit.

As I said earlier, I don't know where this thought process will take us, but I've definitely been reminded of my priorities to my DCs as well as to myself - it's all very well having the peace of mind of being debt free, but I also want my children to grow up with the experiences and skills that they deserve.

DH and I are talking more about being clever with our choices in the short term, rather than trying to stretch ourselves further. More about not just mindlessly spending time, energy and money on visiting certain family members who don't add anything to our children's lives but demand regular visits, and about finding cheaper ways to offer our DCs the experiences we value - maybe joining the local cheap canoeing club instead of going on a fancy outdoor adventure holiday. No firm decisions yet, but lots of ideas percolating.

And I have finally found Hypno's first diary (here it is, for anyone else interested), so I'm going to start to crawl my way through it. I am already feeling like a total failure though, after reading about her two full time jobs plus a million other things at the same time, so I'm not sure how much further I'm going to get!

Treadingonplaymobil

In brighter news, the people came and paid for the bike trailer today, so that's almost £200 after eBay fees that can go into various pots - mostly the holiday one, as we have camping that needs paying for next month so it means that pot won't sit as a negative figure until October, which will be nice.

Suffolk_lass

Treadingonplaymobil wrote: »

and can say I have honestly never seen a poster who said "I really wish I hadn't given my DC the opportunities that I did, even though it was a huge factor in my debt."

Well actually, I have that particular copyright, it seems.

Rather than move house, to the catchment area of a better state school, we sent out Son to a small prep school and really stretched ourselves to pay the school fees. We divided the summer holidays so he had two weeks in an excellent, varied, well-run holiday play-scheme (cost a fortune), two weeks with my Mum looking after him, either at hers or at ours, and two weeks with us, somewhere camping, or a holiday cottage or cheap gite in N France.

We gave up on foreign holidays after realising the debt we were in, but stretched again to pay for an orthodontist for four years (started with 12-18 month treatment plan that went on forever), and various clubs and school trips. When he was 21 we had just come into some money that would have cleared our mortgage and left us comfortable. We instead bought a second house, keeping the mortgage on ours, and gifted him 25% as his 21st present.

He has no interest in earning money beyond enough to live on, in a poorly paid shift job in challenging circumstances, which periodically frustrates him. What frustrates us is his total lack of work-life ambition or progression. We think we made it too easy for him.

And the money we had is tied into his house, where it generates just enough to cover the bills but no more. I retire early next year, still with a mortgage of (currently) over £70,000 and a dilemma. Do I use our pension savings to pay it off, and sacrifice much of the future 3rd age we planned, or continue to economise where we can and pay down by nibbling away? We were relatively late to parent-hood and we clearly spoiled him in some ways.

Our Son lacks ambition, is rather lacking in drive, is untidy (in direct contrast to how he was brought up), eats junk food regularly at vast delivered cost (also because he can, without us making him eat healthily) and in the six years he has lived away from us we have regularly bailed him out financially, and in other ways. My overwhelming sense is that we tried our best but failed him in his preparation for life.

It wasn't that he lacked things or opportunities, we sacrificed big-time for those. It is the fact it all came too easy for him, so maybe he thinks it always will.

In my view it is not the material things, it is your time, energy and influence that are the most important things and there I feel I failed, at least in part (DH less so). Do things with them, not for them. I could say more, I would definitely do things differently, given the chance to do them again, and I really do regret doing too much for him, too early. As I say, got the poster, T-shirt and matching pens and pencil sets.