£67,031.92 is a frightening number indeed....

Hopeless_Case

I've just found (and subscribed) to this thread, really interesting discussion about children and experiences. Ours are now left home and that makes it easier to cut back, but it is a tough one I think.

Obviously not everyone would be able to end up earning £200pa, or have the mental capacity to cope with that sort of job/pressure, so that is quite an extreme, but at the other end, a life of poverty with no experiences isn't the best start to life, and in between there is a scale of what parents can afford to do.

I think that there is an awful lot you can do for free or almost free, starting with guiding what they watch on tv or the internet to include educational or factual programmes, look at free/cheap local things like museums, or exhibitions, take them to see carnivals, borrow or buy books which will help them learn about the world, try and teach them what opportunities doing well at school will give them, and steer them in the right direction if a vocational training would be more their thing, and encourage them that they can succeed (this is probably the most important thing in my opinion, although definitely not easy!!)

We had a day trip to the seaside last week, which just cost petrol and then under £10 for parking/ice cream/cup of tea, and there was a visitor centre in the dunes which taught about local wildlife etc and had some activities for kids, and I guess you could read about the area before you went and get them to spot things or talk about the towns you went through etc

It's much harder if you haven't got money, and i agree that planning to take longer to pay off debts in order to free up a bit more 'experience' money wouldn't necessarily be a bad way to go
but I'd be wary about big borrowing

natsplatnat

Love this topic!!


My thoughts, based on my experiences and observations....

• My mum and stepdad were bankrupt in the 80's, they just managed to hang on to the house. Myself and my brother never went without, although there wasn't such pressure on branded clothing and electronic devices back then. We didn't have annual summer holidays, but every Sunday we would go somewhere by car and do something. The beach, museums, castles, parks, farms; I must have done every attraction within a 3 hr radius of our house. I went to ballet lessons and my brother had music lessons. I had a fab childhood. I was certain that I wouldn't have 'debt' when I was older, I studied and worked to earn money... aged 25 I had around £25,000 of debt. All cleared now. I recently discovered my brother (8 years junior) with a better paid job than me (ok, he has a mortgage and 2 kids) has around £40,000 of debt which he is now working to clear.
• My Dad and step-mum have 2 kids of their own. Dad worked hard for his money and my brother and sister had (I would say) a more privileged up-bringing than myself (I did spend 2 weeks every summer with them on holiday usual in the UK or Scotland; they also went abroad). Both had extra-curricular activities whilst at school etc. My sister works, is a single-parent and is in debt (properly rubbish with money).My brother, is married with 2 kids and a mortgage, works hard and has a decent amount of savings.
• And here is where I identify with Suffolk Lass when I look at my own DSS. Even at the age of 16 he already lacks any ambition. He is lazy beyond anything I have ever experienced before! A part time job is too much 'hard work' for him and I think he is about to quit (saves us 3 or 4 20 mile round trips a week to get him there and back). Which is fine as the 'bank of dad and SM' is closed!! If he can't be bothered to earn money I am stuffed if he thinks we will just give it to him any more. He too would rather spend his money on fast-food rather than eat the food that is in the house. His first pay from his job was (apparently) around £100 less than it should have been. We have offered to help him sort it out (or understand why if it is right). But he is just not worried. We have just come back from a foreign holiday and the cost of it didn't even seem to phase him. On top of the holiday we paid for excursions, food, drinks and all the other bits n pieces He was reluctant to spend any of his own money whilst there, but did manage to part with some for some t-shirts (oh and a box of mini cornetto for us to share.... he ate 4 of the 6!!) He has plans for a few years time of walking into a well paid job, moving out and getting a dog... oh, and moving to America. He wants to learn to drive in 2019... we have said that we will contribute as much as he does (we will actually contribute more but he does not know that)!! At the moment I don't need to worry about budgeting for that!

I just don't think there is any hard and fast rule that what works for one child / family will work for another. I do think that it is all about balance.


*But don't forget that as a parent, your life is for living too!!*

fraserbooks

I think you have opened up a huge debate with your posting on how much you want to spoil your children. I am not sure how old you and your husband are but remember parenting is a marathon not a Sprint. . I wonder if you have thought how old you will be when they are at university and if they have children do you want to be committed to working long hours rather than spending time with your grandchildren. I had five children now grown up and I regret not being able to spend enough time with them doing fun activities and not spending enough time in the local parks but I don't regret not taking them into fancy restaurants or on skiing holidays.

When I was growing up my father was disabled and my mother taught me that I could succeed but I would have to work hard. I had part time jobs when I was at school and at university . She was widowed quite young and I promised my dad I would look after her which I tried to do . None of my children have ever had serious financial problems nor do they think they are entitled to the finer things in life.

Your children will value life experiences more if they have worked hard to pay for them. They may even treat you . One of our sons who is a teacher recently treated us to a half term break in the Canary Isles.

Chrystal

I think the comments just prove that there is no hard and fast rule.

Wanting the best for your children is something that nearly all parents aspire to, and if a child has a particular gift then obviously doing everything you can to encourage that is natural.
I've made many mistakes with my children, and there are loads of things I wish I'd done, and many more that I wish I hadn't done! The thing is they're all unique, so what works with one doesn't necessarily work with another.
Making them aware that money doesn't grow on trees is a start, as is showing them that not all children have the privileges/lifestyle that they do. It opens their eyes to the real world, and perhaps makes them realise that they have to put effort into what they want. You only have to look at most of the children of the rich and famous to realise that having everything is not always a good thing.

At the end of the day what we do/don't do for our kids is a decision that we all have to make and we can only do what we think is best at the time. Just don't pin all your hopes on the fact that what you do will make them into high earners who are excellent at everything they do in life. On the other hand if they grow up happy well rounded people it will have been worth some sacrifices.

Honeybug

Have loved reading about this topic. It is an internal discussion i also have.

I agree that it is very much child led. What is right for one isnt necessarily right for another. I also wonder if place in the family has any bearing? For example mothers and their sons!! My DS1 is doing well but doesnt have the same drive and eagerness as DS2. Suffice to say they have both had the same 'opportunities and experiences' .

I am one of those who will sacrifice and have got into debt for holidays and things but i dont regret it. We both work hard and enjoying experiences with them is precious. When they were younger we did the local parks, museums etc but teenagers are different and whilst they will spend time chatting, eating and being with us, it is also great to 'share adventures' with them and take them to places that will broaden their horizons and cultural understanding. I am also a bit of a believer that travel is great for children - it never quite goes to plan and is a great opportunity to model problem solving skills in a different country, giving them confidence.

I guess all parents do the best they can at the time. It is all we can do .

enthusiasticsaver

This is certainly fascinating reading and as parents we all aspire to do our best as parents and many of us can look back and say we would do some things differently. I agree totally with Suffolk Lass that in some cases making life too easy for our kids leads to the sense of entitlement and lack of ambition I mentioned earlier. I have seen that time and time again particularly in wealthy families but sometimes in middle or even lower earners where parents do without everything to give their children all they want. Sometimes their children show little gratitude for this as adults.

I followed my dads lessons in life and luckily my DH agreed that we would not go into huge debt to give our kids experiences we could not afford. They were both made to work holiday jobs and weekends for pocket money from age 16 and for expensive school trips they had to earn half or use Xmas or birthday money. We did foreign holidays with them within our budget, we did family theatre trips, visits to London and theme parks and they went to guides, ballet, did music lessons, horse riding, skiing trips and swimming lessons, not all at the same time. We gave them choices, two activities each week first because of the cost and secondly the eating into family time of chauffeuring them to all the activities. They are both really good with money now and both have successful careers. I don't know if that is anything we did though as sometimes I think personalities will win out as to what type of adult they will become. They are kind considerate young women which I think matters more than how big their house or salary is.

As we did not sacrifice everything for our kids when they were young we have been able to save for an early retirement and been able to pay for the odd family holiday with our daughters, help them on the housing ladder once we perceived they were good with money and now spend a lot of time with our grandchildren.

I don't regret any of the things we did. Neither of them are £200k earners mainly because they chose to live near us in the West Country which is not a high earning part of the country. They are happy, healthy, hard working and solvent though which is all we wished for them when they were growing up. We all do our best as parents and sometimes kids don't turn out as we would wish anyway.

Honeysucklelou2

Very interesting discussion! Having a larger family has meant that the children have had the option of after school clubs but they have had to choose 1. I've done the getting into debt to fund swimming/horse riding/football etc and got to the point where it was so pressured trying to get the right child to the right place at the right time with the right equipment. Iit rather overshadowed the actual activity.
In my job, I regularly come across children who are tired from attending so many different after school activities that I do think balance is essential.

So much depends too, on the personality of the child. My DD1 is confident and outgoing and absolutely loves her holiday job in retail. This is the third year she has worked for this particular company and she manages her money well. DD2 in contrast, is much quieter and as such has found it harder to find work, not because she is workshy, far from it, but she finds it more difficult to push herself forward. Both have been treated the same in terms of opportunities/clubs/experiences.

Being in debt and needing to continue to reduce that debt means that our holiday days out will have to be carefully planned but the biggest difference I have found this year, is the setting aside of one night a week to go to the beach with my children and have tea on the beach. Happily there is no phone signal there which means they are decsreened instantly and seeing them laugh and splash in the sea is priceless. Simple pleasures...

Treadingonplaymobil

Week 75: Day 5

Wow, what an interesting discussion. I think a couple of key points from all your thoughtful posts are:
(a) There are no guarantees - one could spend a small fortune and end up with children who grow into unfulfilled adults, and vice versa.
(b) It depends a lot on the child.
(c) Experiences are unlikely to be a bad thing, but neither is showing respect for the reality of income vs outgoings.

DH and I have resolved, in the short term, to be a little more thoughtful about the experiences and influences in our children's lives - rather than just dashing off in the car every time a family member summons us, we're going to think about whether it's good for us, for the children and for our budget, and if it is, whether we can add anything to the experience to make it even better (eg stopping on the way for a national trust property or turning it into a camping weekend). All the DCs have expressed a desire to do more things outside (when I asked what they'd like to do, more walking on dartmoor, canoeing, sailing and reading outside all came up), so we're going to look into ways to do that as DH and I are also outdoors people and it's easy for that to fall by the wayside in the endless dash to clubs (during the week) and family (on the weekend).

Longer term, we'll see where that takes us, and as the budgets shake down over the coming months maybe we can look at adding a new 'experiences' budget category.

Something sort of related that I've found interesting recently is how much less my children want to buy when they have to spend their own money. I have always made sure we have decent everyday art supplies in the house, but recently I've insisted that anything beyond the usual paper, pens, pencils etc needs to be bought with their own money rather than funded by us. DC1 has rejected pads of A3 paper, which previously he went through like water, and DC2 has rejected fancier paints. Both older children have £50+ in their piggy banks from birthdays and saved pocket money, so I feel they have the means to buy what they want if they feel they can't live without it.

I have had a couple of enquiries for client facing work this week, and I have to confess my heart sinks a little each time - I am so done with seeing clients, but really can't afford to turn them away at the moment. Really really really hope I can build up my other business areas to be able to move on from client facing work over the coming 18 months.

My house is still a total disaster area after the exhaustion of the wedding and I have spent all week trying to slooowwwly pick it back up again. I did four laundry loads yesterday, so now I have an ironing mountain to conquer but at least the dirty laundry pile isn't so ominous. Every single room needs tidying and hoovering and goodness knows what else is still to do. DC3 has no preschool today so I'm hoping to park her in front of the TV for a while and get a few things done.

To do this week
1. Pack orders for smaller business.
2. Tidy house.
3. Clear emails and deal with any firefighting that needs to be done as a result of not working for virtually a week.
4. Restart daily social media (again, a week off!). Well I did a post yesterday, let's see if I can continue the trend today :T .

Mini goals:
- £9.93/31 June rounding down pot.
- £3,114.53/£5,000 2018 debt repayment goal.
- £352/£932 extension pre-build costs shortfall.[/QUOTE]

armchairexpert

In Australia, around a third of all children go to a private school. Effectively, that means that if you're white collar, sending your kids private is the norm.

Kids who go private overwhelmingly do better, are more likely to go to university, and are far more likely to get high paying jobs later. Leading to the pressure of, well, am I letting my kids down if we don't, etc.

But what all the studies show is that once you control for parental income and education, that benefit disappears almost completely. It's just that almost all the parents who are themselves highly educated, affluent and culturally invested in their own kids' education (I don't know how to say that last bit, but I mean that if you're middle class and university educated you're more likely to see those things as a goal for your own kids) go private.

I think the same goes for extracurriculars and the other opportunities you're talking about. Was it the actual extracurriculars that saw your friend's kids do so well? Or the fact that they were raised in a house where that was the expectation, and they were aware that sacrifices were being made for them? Is it the activity, or the fact that they have parents who prioritised the activity?

I think it's the latter. And now I'm going to go do some research on it! I admit that my opinion is self serving, because I'm not going to send my kids private, nor pay for ski trips and tutors. What I am going to do is keep taking my kids to the art gallery and the museum and free concerts and teach them to cook and knit and garden instead of whipping out the iPads and pay for theatre trips when I can manage it. I think there are many ways to broaden your child's horizons without a lot of money if (IF) you already have the cultural capital to do so. Not everyone can, I don't mean to deny systemic privilege - we're lucky enough to both be highly educated with influential peers. But I don't think it's the paid activity per se. I think it's the cultural signifiers behind the paid activity.

enthusiasticsaver

Honeysucklelou2 wrote: »

Very interesting discussion! Having a larger family has meant that the children have had the option of after school clubs but they have had to choose 1. I've done the getting into debt to fund swimming/horse riding/football etc and got to the point where it was so pressured trying to get the right child to the right place at the right time with the right equipment. Iit rather overshadowed the actual activity.
In my job, I regularly come across children who are tired from attending so many different after school activities that I do think balance is essential.

So much depends too, on the personality of the child. My DD1 is confident and outgoing and absolutely loves her holiday job in retail. This is the third year she has worked for this particular company and she manages her money well. DD2 in contrast, is much quieter and as such has found it harder to find work, not because she is workshy, far from it, but she finds it more difficult to push herself forward. Both have been treated the same in terms of opportunities/clubs/experiences.

Being in debt and needing to continue to reduce that debt means that our holiday days out will have to be carefully planned but the biggest difference I have found this year, is the setting aside of one night a week to go to the beach with my children and have tea on the beach. Happily there is no phone signal there which means they are decsreened instantly and seeing them laugh and splash in the sea is priceless. Simple pleasures...

It sounds like you have given your children a wonderful childhood which cannot be easy when you have a larger family Honeysuckle. As you say simple pleasures and time I think is what has most impact on their lives. We spent the day yesterday with my niece and her husband and two young children as they are staying in Devon right on the beach practically. No phone signal so she said once the kids got over no phones or iPads and her and her husband could not use their phones it was a wonderful holiday just splashing about in the sea, reading books. A tech free week.

Thoroughly agree about doing too many activities meaning too much time scheduled for and no downtime which I think is important for kids. Balance is the key and we never forced our DDs to continue with activities they did not enjoy so they both gave up ballet pretty quickly. I asked my DD yesterday if she was sending my DGD1 to ballet and she laughed and said she has the grace of an elephant but if she asks she can try it but she would steer her more to gymnastics and like me she and her husband have decided only 2 activities weekly at a time. Swimming is one as she can't swim yet so she gets to choose one more.

I am sure once your DD2 gets a job her confidence will bloom and they will see her potential. That is what happened with my DD2. She on the surface was less confident than her elder sister but she did well at university and in her first job she was promoted quickly. I think eldest children often seem more confident and outgoing.