Rising Damp

Lydia_Caldecot

Can someone please help me. I have been told my neighbour's lease does not cover his internal walls or party walls for rising damp, only external walls. Is there anyone who understands the following clause?


Where a horizontal division is created between the demised premises and any adjoining property the joists and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property above or of the roof as the case may be and the ceilings and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property both internal and external below shall be deemed to form part of the property below or of the foundations as the case may be and any vertical boundary between the two flats or between a flat and a common part of the building shall be a party boundary

Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925 shall apply to all notices required to be served hereunder

IT IS HEREBY DECLARED as follows
Every wall separating the demised premises from any other part of the building shall be a party wall severed medially and shall be included in the demised premises as far only as the medial part of thereof

Thank you in advance

G_M

It would help to understand why you are asking.

Are you in dispute with your neighbour over liability for repairs for the damp?

Or are you asking on behalf of your neighbour who is in dispute with another leaseholder in the building? Or his freeholder?

Lydia_Caldecot

Thank you for replying.
We are all freeholders and in the throws of changing managing agents. We want to be fair to everyone. No-one wants to fall out but at the same time no-one wants to pay for somebody else's works if we are not liable.
Hope that helps

Hoploz

The bit at the end regarding vertical walls says that they will be owned by each property up to the middle point of the wall's width.

So if you're talking about damp I suppose if it only affects one side of the joining wall then the person in the affected flat will be responsible, but if it affects both sides of the wall, in the two flats, then both flats will be responsible for their own remedial works.

For all damp issues the cause is important to determine as the damp damage will spread until the cause is eradicated.

G_M

As Hoploz says, the first step is to identify the cause of the damp.

Q1) You describe it as 'rising damp', so I assume it is affecting one or more of the ground floor flats, at ground level?

Q2) I assume it is affecting one or more external wall? Or does it also affect internal walls? If internal, hat's the other side? Another flat or a shared area (hallway)?

Q3) can you check the wording you have quoted as I suspect it is not accurate?

Q4) can you find and quote any other relevant parts of the lease? In particular references to what constitutes the 'common parts', and /or responsibility for the roof, external walls, foundations and common parts.

Where a horizontal division is created between the demised premises and any adjoining property the joists and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property above or of the roof as the case may be

applies to the boundaries between two flats on top of each other

the ceilings and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property both internal and external below shall be deemed to form part of the property below or of the foundations as the case may be

seems strange as it relates to parts 'above the same' being part of the foundations.

Unclear who who is responsible for foundations though - may be the ground floor flat....

Every wall separating the demised premises from any other part of the building shall be a party wall severed medially and shall be included in the demised premises as far only as the medial part of thereof

so a flat-owner is responsible to mid-way between his internal wall and his neighbour's internal wall. Not clear what happens if his wall separates him from a common part (eg hallway - who is responsible for common parts?), or it's an external wall (as is likely here)?

I supect the flat owner is responsible for his half of an external wall, with the outer half being a 'common part' - and if the damp is penetrating from outside, then the resonsibility would lie with whoever manages the 'common parts'.

tim123456789

Lydia_Caldecot wrote: »

Can someone please help me. I have been told my neighbour's lease does not cover his internal walls or party walls for rising damp, only external walls. Is there anyone who understands the following clause?


Where a horizontal division is created between the demised premises and any adjoining property the joists and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property above or of the roof as the case may be and the ceilings and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property both internal and external below shall be deemed to form part of the property below or of the foundations as the case may be and any vertical boundary between the two flats or between a flat and a common part of the building shall be a party boundary

Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925 shall apply to all notices required to be served hereunder

IT IS HEREBY DECLARED as follows
Every wall separating the demised premises from any other part of the building shall be a party wall severed medially and shall be included in the demised premises as far only as the medial part of thereof

Thank you in advance

It says that when deciding who is responsible for paying for failing construction, caused by acts outside of the control of any residents:

the joists that form the floor of a flat are the responsibility of that flat (and not the responsibility of the flat to which they form the ceiling), and that responsibility for common walls are shared equally 50-50.

Nothing in the above clause takes away the general responsibility of an owner to pay for the repair of an adjacent flat if that damage is caused by the negligence of the flat owner, and that includes letting damp penetrate through the walls because you didn't attend to it in a timely way

Lydia_Caldecot

Thank you so much for the responses. So helpful and apologies for anything that is unclear.

To clarify on the configuration of the building it is a turn of the last century 4 storey house with 4 units, a flat on each floor. The damp, I said it was rising damp because I think someone said it was, is only in the basement. It does affect common parts(part of the flat is under the main house entrance steps) as there is a leak and water is entering their property. I do have a plan as to where it is but would not like to make it public as feel it is unfair.

Hoploz, You are quite right this does need to be sorted. You confirm what one of my neighbours thinks, that we are only liable for external walls.

G_M. I am going through everything point by point:

1 Only affects the one flat

2 It affects both internal and external walls. The party wall is with a neighbour, I am not sure if they are affected. There is as I mentioned the steps which I am sure we are all liable for. This would include the basement as they do have a room in the main building although the leases are not specific.

3 I have just gone through the wording of the lease and retyped as I am not a good proof reader.

Where a horizontal division is created between the demised premises and any adjoining property the joists and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property above or of the roof as the case may be and the ceilings and all parts of the property both internal and external above the same shall be deemed to form part of the property above or of the roof as the case may be and the ceilings and all parts of the property both internal and external below shall be deemed to form part of the property below or of the foundations as the case may be and any vertical boundary between the two flats or between a flat and a common part of the building shall be a party boundary.

SECTION 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925 shall apply to all notices required to be served hereunder

IT IS HEREBY DECLARED as follows
Every wall separating the demised premises from any other part of the Building shall be a party wall severed medially and shall be included in the demised premises as far only as the medial part thereof

4 I don't know if this is relevant but: I shall also type all clauses mentioned.

Repair maintain renew uphold and keep the demised premises (other than the parts thereof comprised and referred to in paragraphs (2) (3) and( 4) of Clause 5 hereof) and (subject to paragraph (1) of Clause 10 hereof) including both internally and externally all windows and window frames doors and door frames locks fastenings hinges sanitary water gas electrical and central heating apparatus walls ceilings drains pipes wires and cables thereof and therein and all fixtures and additions thereto in good and substantial repair and condition save damage by any of the risks against which the Lessor maintains insurance except insofar as such insurance is vitiated by the act of default of the Lessee has servants agents licensees visitors or sub-lessees and the demised premises and every part thereof being so repaired maintained and kept at the expiration or sooner determination of the said term will deliver up unto the Lessor together with all additions and improvements made thereto in the meantime and all fixtures of every kind which during the said term may be affixed or fastened to or upon the demised premises an additions thereto (tenants fixtures belonging to the Lessee only except always providing the Lessee makes good all damage to the demised premises resulting from the removal thereof)

Clause 5

2 Maintain and Keep in good and substantial repair and condition:
i the main structure of the Building including the principal internal timers the external and boundary walls (other than the boundary walls in the garden at the rear of the demised premises) the foundations and the roof thereof and the main water tanks main drain gutters and rain water pipes
ii all such gas and water mains and pipes drains waste water and sewage ducts and electric cables and wires in under and upon the Building as are not both comprised within and used solely for the purpose of one flat
iii any forecourt gates and paved areas of the Building enjoyed or used by the Lessee in common its hereinafter provided

3 Brush down and clean all stonework and clean prepare and paint the whole of the outside wood iron and other work of the Building hereto or usually painted with two coats of good quality paint and grain and varnish such parts as have been heretofore or are usually grained and varnished as such times as the Lessor shall deem necessary

4 Keep clean and paved the area in or around the front of the Building so enjoyed or used by the Lessee in common as aforesaid and as the Lessor may in her absolute discretion determine.

Clause 10

IT IS HEREBY DECLARED as follows:-

1 Every wall separating the demised premises from any other part of the Building shall be a party wall severed medially and shall be included in the demised premises as far only as the medial part othereof.



Thank you both so much.

Hoploz

This would be much easier to help with if we had an idea where the damp is appearing, and where you think it could be coming from.

Is it the case that there is dampness in the basement flat on the wall joining it to the next door property? Which would be a wall external to your building, but a party wall shared with the next door neighbour?

Not sure what the steps up to the ground floor upstairs have to do with it.

G_M

Again- missing info. Howevere I assume

* clause 4 relates to the leaseholder's responsibility?

* clause 5 relates to the freeholder's responsibility?

Pretty significant facts!

If so, then the freeholder is responsible for:
" the external and boundary walls (other than the boundary walls in the garden at the rear of the demised premises) the foundations and the roof"

So we come back to the question I and others have asked several times:

* what is the cause of the damp?

If it is a problem of a faulty damp proof course (which your thread heading implies 'Rising damp'), then this would seem to fall within the scope of clause 5.2

However rising damp is actually pretty rare. It may well be another issue that is causing the damp. Obviously before determining who is responsible to rectify, you have to know the cause.

The fact that there is a basement is also relevant. Basements by definition are susceptible to damp. And given the division of responsbility where flats adjoin (vertically and horizontally), if the damp is coming from a basement flat to a 1st floor flat, then liability might be different.

Lydia_Caldecot

Dear both
Thank you for being so patient. We are talking about the basement flat and the damp has not gone into any other flat although next door may be affected. One room, a bathroom is under the communal steps which i have been told caused the damp but there are problems throughout. There was a damp proof course years ago but it has long expired. The owner got three quotes and there is mention of damp and rising damp but i don't know how it all came about. The owner before this one did not look after the property, it was repossess and left empty for over 2 years.
The current buyer bought it at a knock down price as problems were factored in.

If I could pm you I could pass on the details of the quotes?

Yes, clause 4 refers to the Lessee and Cluase 5, the Lessor.

I am arranging for another quote on behalf of the other freeholders. I was planning on splitting it up into
interior walls, external walls, party walls and damage caused by the steps which are communal property (therefore i guess, responsible for the damage).

Is there is a way i could contact you directly?

thank you

Hoploz

If elderly condition steps have somehow caused water ingress to a flat then I'd suggest this may be a case for the shared buildings insurance to assess.

The repair to the steps would be for the freeholders/management co/service charge to cover, and damage to the fabric of the building would be paid for by the buildings insurance. Damage internally to the flat, eg decorating/spoilt carpets & furniture would be covered by the occupier's contents insurance.

If damp proofing of the basement has failed then TBH I am not sure but I would assume this would again be up to the freeholder/management co/service charge to pay for, in the same way as I'd expect maintenance and repairs to the roof would be.

Does that help?