Electric cars

Gloomendoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

That isn't the issue, there will not be 40m EV's in the UK tomorrow (or possibly ever) so once again you seem to be trying to create an argument for the sake of an argument.

Is this another attempt 'to wind me up', so that you can then play the victim if I politely disagree with you?

I am not now and never have intentionally wound you up. I am simply as fed up as you are with going around in circles. Believe it or not, in my day to day job, I have good deal of contact with people who are shaping the future automotive environment (genuine experts). The issues, barriers to greater EV adoption and viability, that I have raised have also been raised by them.

zeupater

Gloomendoom wrote: »

I assumed that you were referring to me there but then I noticed that you had said “people that don’t like the idea”.

Hi

So, obviously claiming to like the idea of EVs, what is it that you find will make their introduction an outstanding consumer success? ... moreover, taking the current projected timeline for their introduction, then after overlaying this with the currently available infrastructure, what do you consider to be the critical path for the complete roll-out within an integrated project plan as well as where the insurmountable choke points which impact on the major milestones are? ....

I'd be interested to see that charted & explained ... afterwards I'd look to compare it with what the industry insiders & experts say ... to some delivering such a plan would be impossibly complex, to others it would be akin to inhaling .... and exhaling .... and inhaling ... no need for DNA here, just call it second nature!

Now then, seeing this with a positive mindset, what exactly are the issues and at what point in time do they start to choke the project ??

HTH
Z

AdrianC

Gloomendoom wrote: »

Errrrr... no.

McClaren Automotive

One mis-spelling is as likely as any other...

Martyn1981

Gloomendoom wrote: »

I am not now and never have intentionally wound you up. I am simply as fed up as you are with going around in circles. Believe it or not, in my day to day job, I have good deal of contact with people who are shaping the future automotive environment (genuine experts). The issues, barriers to greater EV adoption and viability, that I have raised have also been raised by them.

Hiya. I didn't say you where winding me up, I said you were clearly trying too, with all of your silly and petty comments, and arguments based on nonsense and spin - it doesn't work because it's the same tactics used on t'internet by so many - post something silly, defend something silly, pretend you didn't say it, claim upset from the other party, pretend to be victim - nothing new, nothing clever.

Hopefully you now have the information to correct the concerns of your colleagues since they (like you) appear incapable of appreciating the bigger picture, nor the time frame involved ..... what was it, 40m cars by today (yesterday's tomorrow)?


So perhaps we can now have a rational conversation about EV rollout, EV adoption, natural and steady evolution of the 'Nation's Grid' (National Grid + DNO's), and perhaps the role of RE generation and storage, since they are of interest to myself, and also important to the cleaning of EV emissions, and the meeting of increased demand on 'the grid' if not peak demand.

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

The issue here is the ability/willingness to navigate around problems and leverage their existence to provide opportunities ....

In the case of transformer heat dissipation potentially causing lifespan issues, there's two obvious approaches ...

1. Accept the shorter lifespan and write off increased time-line capital costs against increased energy throughput.

2. Enhance the cooling mechanism utilising revenue provided by increased energy throughput.

Issue solved .. so where would there be opportunities? - well, whilst upgrading the cooling system why not recover the heat and utilise it in a community CHP scheme providing energy efficiency improvements and an additional revenue stream to the network operators ... is it possible?, well I remember reading an article by NG a few years ago which mentioned that they were already trialling the possibility, so it probably is!

Insurmountable problems to some are simply opportunities to others!

HTH
Z

I was pondering this, this morning, whilst shovelling cat ..... from the litter tray, as you do.

Will the transformers need additional cooling or have shorter lives?

Here's my thinking, they are designed to cope with peak loads, and there's a very good chance that peak demand will, in the future, be partially supplied by the demand side, so whilst total leccy demand may not go down, the amount going through the transformers will be less.

Next, the transformer loads at off-peak will increase to meet increased demand, and the demand side storage used to reduce peak (earlier on) but will still be less than the old peak demand.

So will the transformers suffer from greater throughput, or benefit from a lower throughput at peak. Basically what I'm asking is, does the reduced heat at peak make up for the increased heat at off-peak?

[Edit - that didn't make much sense, so taking our inverters as an example, would they suffer more from say 30% average load but peaks at 90%, or 40% average load with peaks at 60% ..... just as an example? M.]

Obviously it doesn't really matter, it's a bit like a taxi firm (sticking with cars (this forum)) using their fleet more at off-peak times, they will incur more servicing, as the vehicles will average more miles per day, but Shirley that's a good thing as the business is seeing more, well, business?

Maybe I should ask Dave Fowler for some input on this?

Gloomendoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya. I didn't say you where winding me up, I said you were clearly trying too, with all of your silly and petty comments, and arguments based on nonsense and spin - it doesn't work because it's the same tactics used on t'internet by so many - post something silly, defend something silly, pretend you didn't say it, claim upset from the other party, pretend to be victim - nothing new, nothing clever.

Hopefully you now have the information to correct the concerns of your colleagues since they (like you) appear incapable of appreciating the bigger picture, nor the time frame involved ..... what was it, 40m cars by today (yesterday's tomorrow)?

So perhaps we can now have a rational conversation about EV rollout, EV adoption, natural and steady evolution of the 'Nation's Grid' (National Grid + DNO's), and perhaps the role of RE generation and storage, since they are of interest to myself, and also important to the cleaning of EV emissions, and the meeting of increased demand on 'the grid' if not peak demand.

Your ability to see non-existent subtext astounds me.

If you pm me your details I’ll pass them on to my colleagues. I’m sure they will be relieved to find that a bloke off the internet has managed to overcome all the problems currently standing in the way of mass EV adoption (not that there are any, of course). Who knows, they may even invite you both to speak at conferences. With zeupater handling the project planning too, how can we lose?

Martyn1981

Gloomendoom wrote: »

Your ability to see non-existent subtext astounds me.

If you pm me your details I’ll pass them on to my colleagues. I’m sure they will be relieved to find that a bloke off the internet has managed to overcome all the problems currently standing in the way of mass EV adoption (not that there are any, of course). Who knows, they may even invite you both to speak at conferences. With zeupater handling the project planning too, how can we lose?

If you are done now, can we get back to EV's (and reality) please.

Car_54

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

So, obviously claiming to like the idea of EVs, what is it that you find will make their introduction an outstanding consumer success? ... moreover, taking the current projected timeline for their introduction, then after overlaying this with the currently available infrastructure, what do you consider to be the critical path for the complete roll-out within an integrated project plan as well as where the insurmountable choke points which impact on the major milestones are? ....

I'd be interested to see that charted & explained ... afterwards I'd look to compare it with what the industry insiders & experts say ... to some delivering such a plan would be impossibly complex, to others it would be akin to inhaling .... and exhaling .... and inhaling ... no need for DNA here, just call it second nature!

Now then, seeing this with a positive mindset, what exactly are the issues and at what point in time do they start to choke the project ??

HTH
Z

The "complete rollout" is dependent on a large number of independent parties - including government(s), car makers, generators, National Grid, and of course individual car buyers. None of these are under the control of any single body.

Any project plan would be a work of fantasy, and doomed to failure.

zeupater

Car_54 wrote: »

The "complete rollout" is dependent on a large number of independent parties - including government(s), car makers, generators, National Grid, and of course individual car buyers. None of these are under the control of any single body.

Any project plan would be a work of fantasy, and doomed to failure.

Hi

Yes, but no ... If there's a date set for a project to reach a milestone (say x% of vehicle sales to be EVs by date y) then there's a point to work back from and develop a project plan ... that's the way the world works ... set a goal and work back from there, identify the individual components for the project, test resource allocation & potential cost, perform risk & critical path analysis then look for the bottlenecks which require focussed effort/resource to remove ... when everything in the identified critical path falls into place you have a framework to work from ..

When the complexity of intermeshed but independent parties such as you raise occurs (ie government(s), car makers, generators, National Grid etc) that's simply managed as separate sub-projects ... it's pretty much the same as how any automotive OEM manages their component supply chain on each & every new platform, especially those which involve new buildings, plant, machinery & workforce in a country/region without an existing automotive manufacturing industry ...

Doomed to failure? - well looking at the evidence available - Government(s) have set time-lines which car makers seem to be happy with and the generation & infrastructure operators are sounding extremely positive too ... the complete absence of panic since the announcement of EV adoption goals in the UK & elsewhere around the world suggests that the required project plans already exist in some form or other, but even if they don't the likely effect is a simple revisitation of some of the market penetration% milestones! ... :cool:

HTH
Z

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I was pondering this, this morning, whilst shovelling cat ..... from the litter tray, as you do.

Will the transformers need additional cooling or have shorter lives?

Here's my thinking, they are designed to cope with peak loads, and there's a very good chance that peak demand will, in the future, be partially supplied by the demand side, so whilst total leccy demand may not go down, the amount going through the transformers will be less.

Next, the transformer loads at off-peak will increase to meet increased demand, and the demand side storage used to reduce peak (earlier on) but will still be less than the old peak demand.

So will the transformers suffer from greater throughput, or benefit from a lower throughput at peak. Basically what I'm asking is, does the reduced heat at peak make up for the increased heat at off-peak?

[Edit - that didn't make much sense, so taking our inverters as an example, would they suffer more from say 30% average load but peaks at 90%, or 40% average load with peaks at 60% ..... just as an example? M.]

Obviously it doesn't really matter, it's a bit like a taxi firm (sticking with cars (this forum)) using their fleet more at off-peak times, they will incur more servicing, as the vehicles will average more miles per day, but Shirley that's a good thing as the business is seeing more, well, business?

Maybe I should ask Dave Fowler for some input on this?

Hi

Pretty much my thinking .. if the industry perceive it as being beneficial, they'll invest to extend the lifespan, if not they'll continue as they are ...

As you mention, distributed generation will mitigate much of the issue anyway. The load on our local network transformer during the day is marginally lower just because of our small PV system, so should run cooler ... then again, the substation it's fed from has a 5MWp solar farm connected which is also reducing upstream network transformer loading. Maybe some nodes will need attention, but it's likely that distributed generation will have solved or significantly reduced the perceived problem before the mass uptake of EVs have had a chance to cause it!

HTH
Z