Electric cars

Martyn1981

Cornucopia wrote: »

Petrol-electric Hybrid, or even Petrol-fuelled Hybrid?

The problem with "Self-charging" is that it is inherently ambiguous.

Yep, Toyota are being extremely naughty here.

Nikki from Transport Evolved has now done an item on it. Pure brilliance.

She says people have asked how these new self charging electric cars work, so she first explained the HEV, the Atkinson cycle ICE (more efficient but less power) trying to stay near the efficiency sweet spot, with excess to batts, or shortfall from batts, plus braking to batts.

Then she got to - 'but Nikki, how do these new ones work', and I was sure I was ahead of her, expecting 'with petrol' or 'exactly the same', but her line was 100x better:

"How does it work? It works with ....... advertising."

Like RL she is very complimentary of all teh work Toyota has done for EV development, and also gives kudos to the genius who came up with this 'self charging' line, but she seems to have nothing but criticism for Toyota's use of a completely misleading and confusing term.

RL pointed out that one of the Toyota ads shows the 'self charging' car driving past someone standing next to their BEV holding the charger (like a petrol car being fueled at the petrol station) and he pointed out that he has never (ever) stood next to a BEV or PHEV holding the charger whilst it charges.

Naughty Toyota, it's not self charging, it's petrol charging, all the batt energy comes via the burning of petrol, but they've realised that the news is full of electric car mentions, so they've found a sneaky way to 'compete' with BEV's.

Also, we can use the Ade test. If he agrees with it, then we know it's wrong, very wrong.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Also, we can use the Ade test. If he agrees with it, then we know it's wrong, very wrong.

Thank you for finally admitting that you play the man, not the ball; the poster, not the post.

I've not "agreed" with anything. I've merely pointed out how it's being used. I've also asked what other term you'd use to differentiate from a plug-in hybrid. Apart from "not-plug-in", I'm still waiting on suggestions...

Martyn1981

BNEF have revised their date for ICE v's BEV price competitiveness down from 2024 to 2022 (and previously 2026).

Note headline to be revised, should be 2022.

BNEF Shocker — Electric Cars Price Competitive In 2020 As Battery Costs Plummet

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Thank you for finally admitting that you play the man, not the ball; the poster, not the post.

I've not "agreed" with anything. I've merely pointed out how it's being used. I've also asked what other term you'd use to differentiate from a plug-in hybrid. Apart from "not-plug-in", I'm still waiting on suggestions...

Nope. Simply showing that when something is wrong on here, you'll defend it. So we can simply apply the 'Ade test' to quickly judge if something is good or bad.

If you want to post something contrary to every post I make, or every article I mention, then that's fine, I'm used to it, but please don't cry foul about 'playing the man' given your long running campaign.

Oh, and if you genuinely want a term for HEV charging, then it's 'a petrol charging electric car', pretty obvious, pretty simple.

DrEskimo

For me it's always been a petrol hybrid, and it was the plug in petrol hybrid that came about to differentiate them from the non plug ins. The need to suddenly come up with a new term for non plug in Hybrids was never an issue until Toyota decided to rebrand them as 'self charging'.

Given diesel hybrids are pretty rare, I think most people will know that when you say hybrid, you mean a non plug in petrol hybrid, and when you say plug in hybrid, you mean a petrol hybrid with the ability to charge the battery separately.

Self charging is no less confusing, in fact it has clearly created more confusion. Particularly as any EV, hybrid, plug in hybrid or pure EV are all 'self charging' in the exact same way....

AdrianC

Using "hybrid" as the term for non-plug-ins wasn't an issue until they needed differentiating from plug-ins. Specifying that hybrids are petrol-electric is just tautology.

FWIW, Eskimo, I agree with your last sentence about "self-charging" - especially given that we know most plug-ins never actually get plugged in, so all electric use is "self-charged". And, again FWIW, I agree it's a cringey bit of marketing guff - I'm certainly not defending it.

So... suggested alternative terms that do actually differentiate? No negativity - "non-plug-in" - we're marketing, remember.

almillar

"Self-charging" as opposed to plug-in. All the charge is generated onboard, by the internal combustion engine.

What other term would you suggest?

Petrol Self Charging Hybrid. Non Plugin Hybrid. Kinetic Charging Hybrid. If it's a self charging hybrid, then almost all EVs need to be called self-charging too, as most have regenerative braking of some sort.

You're not confused, Adrian, you know that the charge comes from the engine, and there's associated drag and losses. Other consumers think they can do some regen down and hill and travel for miles off the back of that.

Naughty Toyota, it's not self charging, it's petrol charging, all the batt energy comes via the burning of petrol, but they've realised that the news is full of electric car mentions, so they've found a sneaky way to 'compete' with BEV's.

Yes. They're showing a hybrid as having an advantage over pure EV. They should be focussing on the advantage over pure ICE instead.

especially given that we know most plug-ins never actually get plugged in

Plenty do, watch them clog up rapid chargers at 3 or 7kw!

AdrianC

almillar wrote: »

especially given that we know most plug-ins never actually get plugged in

Plenty do, watch them clog up rapid chargers at 3 or 7kw!

Remember this from six months ago?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105206/fleet-owned-plug-in-hybrids-may-never-have-been-charged

almillar

I didn't specify a proportion, 'plenty', I am just observing what happens at chargers.

gzoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The last couple of Fully Charged episodes have been funny as the mild mannered Robert Llewellyn has been pretty angry about Toyota's new advertising campaign about 'self-charging hybrid's'.

Now he's noticed Ford and other companies are choosing the term too for their HEV's.

Rob is very complimentary of all the great work Toyota have done with respect to HEV and PHEV's but he's furious about this misleading advertising.

He's now described his BEV as self charging and when confronted on this explained it's the same claim (it also charges the battery when braking), and yes also wrong/misleading.

Perhaps last roll of the dice by Toyota for HEV's, and picked up by other companies who (like Ford) are going almost all out for HEV's and PHEV's, but dragging their heels on BEV's?

Purely from a selfish point of view I'm loving the fact the public is lapping up the whole 'self charging hybrid' slogan.

Our other car is a 'self charging hybrid', been a small executive saloon I would expect it to have lost well over 50% value at 4 years old. But a quick look on Autotrader today shows as a private sale I'll be able achieve 60%+ what we paid for it back in 2015, since we'll be looking to move to a full EV driveway at some point its great news .

So am all for 'self charging hybrids', they are fab cars, work well, reliable, economical, and a great second hand buys :rotfl:.