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Electric cars

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  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,410 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    That doesn't really say what you think it says, y'know, no matter how much you may wish it to say something else.

    I'm comfortable with the audit trail.

    First you challenged Al's claim that the Zoe was profitable (I agree).

    Then when I posted what I think was a very fair and balanced comment on the need for a cheap and successful (profitable) EV, you suggested the Zoe (and others) already were.

    But then said you didn't know if it was.

    Seems to me, that you simply wanted to post a disagreement with the Transport Evolved article because I'd posted it, but failed to watch it first.

    But I'm sure we'll get the usual double speak from you that you didn't mean what you didn't say, when you didn't say it .... repeatedly.

    Such a waste of time!
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Herzlos
    Herzlos Posts: 15,935 Forumite
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    edited 25 September 2018 at 7:21AM
    Hiring if you have specific requirements and live in the middle of nowhere is a ballache, but there are much cheaper hire options and hire companies that will bring cars to you. I actually think the rental market will see a huge overhaul when we hit a critical EV mass, in terms of availability and convenience.
    When it becomes common to hire for weekend trips you'll be able to find prices coming down and more convenient locations opening up, with vehicles being available at a lot of transit hubs and trunk routes.
    There just isn't the demand at the moment.

    I keep forgetting how rural you are; I'm rural but I'm maybe a 20 mile round trip to the nearest big brand rental place. For any journey outside my EV range I'd need to more or elss drive past a rental place in any direction and swap mid journey but I'm not sure that'd be more convenient than stopping to recharge every hour and a half (100 mile ramge).
    You seem to spend a lot of time hunting for problems without considering that there are solutions.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,410 Forumite
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    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    (zeupdater)
    Tesla was NOT in profit AS OF their MOST RECENT report ... Time has passed, Q2 results are historical, not current.

    Sure.
    - They're 'potentially profitable'. I believe they WILL BE profitable. ... there's a tense issue here - If the company shows a profit at the end of a fiscal reporting period, say Q3/2018, then they must have been profitable during that period - therefore it stands that they would be profitable during Q3 and as of the current date, we're in Q3 ... in which case, to show a profit at the end of the quarter would suggest that they are currently profitable.

    Yes. But can't we just wait for the actual report?!
    - Not making a profit is bad. I do stand by that. Making profit is a fundamental requirement in business LONG TERM ... This is really an issue for investors & their belief in the business model employed.

    Sure. The investers will invest despite the negative, literally, the loss, being made, not because of it.
    that's why they're doing what they're doing & why they're compelled to do it both rapidly & now.

    Got it. It's a risk. It could be argued that slow and safe is less risky, it could be argued that slow and safe would fail. But none of the above is fact, it's opinion.
    - and market traders ... many of the issues with investors & investor relations are related to the short-term view that there traders need to make returns through share-price fluctuations

    Yes. I'm not arguing that, I was pointing it out. Whilst Tesla might be trying to change the world, 'less enlightened' investors just want profit.

    (Martyn)
    But weeks later you are still trying to argue some nonsense about Q2. It has nothing to do with Q2, Please read and think. Unless you can explain what is wrong with those statements, then you need to retract your obsessive complaining.

    It's OK, I'm done with Q2/Q3. I'll let you get onto speculating about Q4 once the Q3 results come out! Yes, you're absolutely free to do so.
    If the guess of 'may, or may not' is so meaningless, then why have you spent weeks trying to find fault with it. Perhaps your crusading 'skills' could be better spent elsewhere.

    I guess this was my point about speculating, you can't speculate a fact, even if it happened in the very recent past.
    Thank you - see what I mean about your skill in adding false claims as fast as you retract them. So far you've spent weeks coming up empty, but simply won't go away!

    I'm an EV driver in a thread about EVs. I'll hang around until AdrainC drives an EV!
    If I quote you, you can click on the little white (in blue) chevron, and jump to the post. This is how 99% of people manage to reply.

    Thanks, I'll give that a go.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,390 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    almillar wrote: »
    ... Sure. The investers will invest despite the negative, literally, the loss, being made, not because of it.

    Got it. It's a risk. It could be argued that slow and safe is less risky, it could be argued that slow and safe would fail. But none of the above is fact, it's opinion.
    Hi

    - "Sure ..." - The issue is that because the investors realise that the accounts reflect rapid investment, expansion & ramping up production of new product at volumes beyond previous experience there is a longer term strategy that they're willing to buy into ...

    - "Got it .." - It could be argued that not pursuing rapid expansion would be the safer option, however that would deny the company the opportunities that the lack of EV momentum from established major automotive sector players have created. A 'slow & safe' strategy would likely consign Tesla to being a niche EV player in an EV dominated global automotive market ...

    - " .. But none of the above is fact, it's opinion" - However, proof of factuality on such issues would be almost impossible, so all you can rely on is consensus ... the consensus of the shareholders would be reflected in the market capitalisation of the company, therefore at the moment they seem to agree with the CEO's risk-taking rapid expansion strategy, despite it being their own money that's funding the 'bet' ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,410 Forumite
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    almillar wrote: »
    It's OK, I'm done with Q2/Q3. I'll let you get onto speculating about Q4 once the Q3 results come out! Yes, you're absolutely free to do so.

    Yes you do have a serious problem don't you. My statement is not speculation, do you understand the difference? Stating that a standard die could come up 1 to 6 is simply explaining the potential outcome, not speculation. So my pointing out that they could currently be in profit is, in your opinion speculation. Actually it's just a factual statement to cover later misuse.

    But ....... shall I tell you what is speculation, you speculating that they are currently profitable:
    almillar wrote: »
    I can differentiate. Tesla is NOT in profit AS OF their MOST RECENT report. They're 'potentially profitable'. I believe they WILL BE profitable.

    Now it might be you meant more generally, or you meant this quarter, so you are speculating that they are currently profitable. But what's interesting once again, is that I can't make a simple fair and honest statement, but you can throw around vague comments that could mean exactly what you suggest an intellectually challenged individual might surmise from my innocent statement. One rule for you, and another for me ..... it still appears.

    I suggest you stop your crusade, as you are not qualified in your basic claimed skill of 'middle man'.

    almillar wrote: »
    I guess this was my point about speculating, you can't speculate a fact, even if it happened in the very recent past.

    Again, i'm afraid the fault lies with your lack of understanding. My statement was a factual clarification, not speculation. Your attempt to change the narrative (yet again) that you are now crusading against speculation is false, as the claim of speculation is and was always false.

    Please read and understand the issues before you continue your failed crusade against facts.

    almillar wrote: »
    I'm an EV driver in a thread about EVs. I'll hang around until AdrainC drives an EV!

    For the 56th(?) time, please don't change the narrative. You can do what you like, where you like, but I'd appreciate it if you stopped wasting all your time starting new false claims against me as fast as you retract all the old ones. By now you should have concluded that the problem you have is a PEBCAK issue at your end.

    almillar wrote: »
    Thanks, I'll give that a go.

    Hmm ........ not sucesfully I see. Is there a reason why you can't do what everyone else can?
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621 Forumite
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    (zeupdater)
    The issue is that because the investors realise that the accounts reflect rapid investment, expansion & ramping up production of new product at volumes beyond previous experience there is a longer term strategy that they're willing to buy into ...
    Sure - these are the 'enlightened ones' - short termers are put off - these are the ones I'm talking about - purely there for the profit, not to change the world.

    - It could be argued that not pursuing rapid expansion would be the safer option, however that would deny the company the opportunities that the lack of EV momentum from established major automotive sector players have created. A 'slow & safe' strategy would likely consign Tesla to being a niche EV player in an EV dominated global automotive market ...
    Thank you. All I needed was 'It could be argued' because I keep being told it can't. I happen to agree about rapid expansion, as I've said.


    (Martyn)
    So my pointing out that they could currently be in profit is, in your opinion speculation. Actually it's just a factual statement to cover later misuse.
    I just don't see the point in saying 'they could currently be in profit'. We'll find out inside 3 months, every time. Seems overly hopeful, and you've since stated you think they'll probably make a loss.


    You speculated (I paraphrase) 'they could be in profit in Q3', I questioned why speculate, we get down to an undeniable fact 'they may or may not be in profit' - I think that fact is pointless.

    For the 56th(?) time, please don't change the narrative.
    Is that what you mean by changing the narrative? I'm simply not allowed to say anything new? Are you banning me from this thread? That was a small attempt at humour, re: AdrianC, and I get 'narrative changing' accusations again.

    Hmm ........ not sucesfully I see.
    I had already written the post, I meant next time - this time. I've 'gone advanced' and quoted within the thread, at risk of losing my post, which I think is why I'd resorted to Notepad, are my qutotes linked now? (Edit - no, they're not!)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,410 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    almillar wrote: »
    I just don't see the point in saying 'they could currently be in profit'. We'll find out inside 3 months, every time.

    The fact you 'don't see the point' is exactly what you can't see.

    I've re-posted the statements now twice for you to read, but I'll try to walk you through them again in the hope that you will see the light.

    You and I were having a nice chat about Tesla, and the 'fact' that they aren't currently profitable. We were both taking a relaxed approach to this, and clearly on the same page that references were to the last quarter end.

    I then threw in a simple fact (please note it is a fact), that since our discussion was taking place in Q3, then to cover my back against later pedantry using my Q3 (date of posting) statements against me, it was important to point out that Tesla might 'currently' (in quarter 3) be profitable.

    It is a simple statement. It is 100% correct, and I believe 100% appropriate to the discussion given the time and Tesla's suggestion that Q3 might be the quarter they make a profit.

    Since then you have gone all round the houses trying to spin what I've said, or change the narrative. But it's all been a pointless waste of time, simply due to your lack of ability to follow a rational conversation that's taking part outside of the time frame on which our earlier comments were based.

    almillar wrote: »
    Seems overly hopeful, and you've since stated you think they'll probably make a loss.

    Correct. Now try to understand the difference, don't be afraid to ask for help.

    My statement about Q3 was to point out the potential for a profit, and therefore the potential for us to have been using inappropriate language when bluntly referring to current and loss.

    My statement suggesting a small loss for Q3 is simply me expressing an opinion, it is speculation, not fact.

    Please don't mix the two issues, it's not that complicated even if it has taken you over two weeks to get this far ...... so far.


    almillar wrote: »
    You speculated (I paraphrase) 'they could be in profit in Q3', I questioned why speculate, we get down to an undeniable fact 'they may or may not be in profit' - I think that fact is pointless.

    [Gonna be a long day!] I did not speculate that they could be in profit in Q3, I stated a fact, that they could be in profit.

    The point of saying it, is explained above, as we were both, when you get down into the weeds of the discussion, misusing the claim that they are currently not profitable, as neither of us knew that for certain. Please go back, have another read. I even tried to clear up your misunderstanding immediately that it was not an argumentative point, but a clarification.

    Your crusade is a waste of time - all it has proven is that you can't follow a simple conversation that is factual about dates.

    almillar wrote: »
    Is that what you mean by changing the narrative? I'm simply not allowed to say anything new? Are you banning me from this thread? That was a small attempt at humour, re: AdrianC, and I get 'narrative changing' accusations again.

    I was asking you to leave me alone, you changed the narrative and tried to make out I was having a go at you posting on the forum. That's not true.

    I've already explained this, but you've tried to keep your misunderstanding going again today by asking if I'm banning you (how sad and pathetic).

    If you stuck to the real discussion and didn't spin of into separate realities all the time I think you would have already gone away and left me alone.

    almillar wrote: »
    I had already written the post, I meant next time - this time. I've 'gone advanced' and quoted within the thread, at risk of losing my post, which I think is why I'd resorted to Notepad, are my quotes linked now? (Edit - no, they're not!)

    What is the problem? Just click on the quote button and start typing. If you want to put in multiple quotes from different people, just open a new tab, quote them, copy and paste.

    This isn't rocket science, not even EV science.


    Now for the good news. All that seems to be left (your having retracted all the rest of it) is your misunderstandings of posts made, so we might finally be there.

    But in the future, if I say something that you think 99% means one thing, don't go for the 1%, over and over and over and over and over ...................................
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    I did not speculate that they could be in profit in Q3, I stated a fact, that they could be in profit.
    Unless you have some kind of inside information, then whether they are in profit in Q3 or not is 100% pure speculation right up until the moment the results are announced.


    Yes, "in profit" is one of the possible options, so it is "a fact" in that sense - although it's more of a basic truism.


    Schrodinger's accountancy?
  • Car_54
    Car_54 Posts: 8,876 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    Unless you have some kind of inside information, then whether they are in profit in Q3 or not is 100% pure speculation right up until the moment the results are announced

    And beyond, unless the results are audited.
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