Electric cars

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Anyway, loved the humorous 'This Is Failure' link in the post by Martyn ... it even made me wonder whether the source of much of the humour was to be found within anti-EV, anti-Tesla & anti-Musk posts made by certain individuals in this very thread ... :D:p

HTH
Z

Yeah I thought it was funny, and the interesting point is that most of the media coverage of Tesla is negative, by a large margin, which comes back to short-sellers, who are not only involved in a dubious practice, but are also believed to be largely behind all the negativity and FUD, since there is a direct financial gain from undermining confidence in the Tesla share value.

Hopefully I'm not going full conspiracy theory here, but it's worth considering the bigger picture when it comes to negativity:

FF industry - they have little love for EV's, and especially companies driving faster change.

Existing car industry - they have a model that works well, and requires regular replacement.

Dealerships - they have a model that works well, requiring regular replacement, and extensive maintenance.

Media/news, especially in the US - who need to be slightly careful about negativity over any particular product or company as that will impact ad revenue from same company ...... unless like Tesla you don't advertise.

I'm going to assume that as Tesla heads into profitability soon (hopefully this quarter or the next), that it will start to shed a lot of the negativity and become the darling of the US, after all, they are kicking German butt and the US seems to have a lot of respect for German cars.

Martyn1981

Couple of interesting articles. Firstly a cost comparison of ICE to EV, with base and long range TM3's compared to cheap & mid model range Camry's, and also to BMW 3 series.

This might upset the FUD'ers, but I think a comparison to the TM3 (unlike the Leaf and Zoe) is fair as Tesla should now be approx breakeven on price/cost, so we have a 'true' EV price for comparison purposes, whereas other EV's might not yet be sustainable, so we can't assume prices are realistic.

Tesla Model 3 Total Cost of Ownership Estimate — Crushing It


And a look at Big Auto and their complaints/excuses for not going down the EV route faster.

Big Auto Keeps Complaining About How Hard Going Electric Is For Them

Legacy automakers have been hyping a future where they’ll finally electrify their fleet. Now, however, it appears they’re a bit reticent to do so. Volkswagen’s CEO, Herbert Diess, recently said, “The burden for our company, such as the cost of bringing to market electric cars, will be higher than expected. … This is particularly so since some of our competitors have been making more progress.”

Looking at this paradox, Raphael Orlove wonders, “Hm! If electric cars are so expensive, why do people build them in their garages with old batteries? Seems like a hole in their logic! I don’t know about you, but I don’t really trust ‘Big ICE’ on this one. And there’s no bigger player in this than VW, which is only pivoting to electric cars because it screwed up so bad in Dieselgate.”

But it’s not just Volkswagen. According to a report in Reuters, incessant whining that electric cars are “forcing carmakers to sell them at a bigger loss to meet emissions goals … is why, on this subject more than most, European carmakers talk from both sides of their mouths.”

daveyjp

The small issue of a nice wedge of tax credit for Tesla vehicles does skew the comparison somewhat.

The opportunity cost of a bullet proof Toyota which will do a million km with no significant issues over a vehicle which is still largely under test isn't considered.

Martyn1981

Possible Nissan SUV.

Scoop: Nissan Electric SUV Price Target = $45,000

Martyn1981

daveyjp wrote: »

The small issue of a nice wedge of tax credit for Tesla vehicles does skew the comparison somewhat.

As does the failure to account for FF externalities. But don't worry, all automakers can get the tax credits if they want to.

Martyn1981

Putting aside issues about Tesla, it's interesting to see how safe EV's can be compared to ICE's in general.

#1, #2, #3 — Tesla Model 3, S, & X = USA’s Safest Cars & Top Selling Electric Cars

Martyn1981

So, not just PSA who are scared about the combination of new EU targets and their failure to move quickly enough on EV's.

Volkswagen Admits It Is Moving Into EVs Too Late, Pushes Back On Emissions Cuts

Volkswagen chief Herbert Diess has threatened massive job losses across its European factories — up to 100,000 workers — if the EU moves forward with new regulations that would mandate automakers slash emissions 35% in the coming years.

He continued the posturing, noting that, “Such an industry can crash faster than many believe,” in seeming denial of the multitude of factors mandating a shift to lower emission vehicles. The threat of losing market share to Tesla may not be the first thing on his mind, but the giant company is already feeling the impact of the fully electric Model 3, which continues to eat into Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche shares every day.

Stacking on this market-driven mandate, Volkswagen is faced with doing its part to provide meaningful solutions that address anthropogenic climate change, an area VW has historically fallen short on, to say the least. The global dieselgate scandal revealed that VW execs knowingly pushed out diesel powertrains that skirted emissions regulations, polluting far more than the allowed limits for many years. Some of those execs are now in jail. Others aren’t.

It should come as no surprise, then, that Diess is back at the podium this week to push back on the proposed EU emission regulations, threatening with the only trick left in the book — jobs. Underpinning his comments is the truth that the entire German auto industry, which employs 1 in 7 German workers directly and as many as 1 in 3 German workers indirectly, is at risk of being washed out if it does not build electric vehicles in line with customer demand.

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

So, not just PSA who are scared about the combination of new EU targets and their failure to move quickly enough on EV's.

Volkswagen Admits It Is Moving Into EVs Too Late, Pushes Back On Emissions Cuts

Hi

Odd approach to take really, it's not as if it was one of their competitors that intentionally mislead their customers on emissions but then to state that “Such an industry can crash faster than many believe” is pretty near incredulous!

Okay, if VW can't build cars to meet customer demand then someone else will, so it's now down to Herbert Diess to make an executive choice ... do VW react to the challenge of market change and increase investment, or will it be a case of hiding heads in sand, moan to/lobby the EU (where VW is probably currently out of favour anyway!) and watch their market share fade? ...

I doubt that there'd be much sympathy within the EU automotive sector for any VW exec lecturing on emissions ... the recent (/current) mayhem on sales created by the industry view that the WLTP/emissions timetable could be influenced through a commonly applied pressure approach was totally scuppered when someone decided to throw in an emissions scandal (or two!), so the opportunity vanished, throwing many manufacturers into total timetable panic!

For around a century the automotive sector has been manufacturer led ... times are changing, the whole sector needs to consider the true meaning of 'customer focus' is related to the consumer, not the OEM ...

Come on VW, stop talking excuses & start doing, else appoint a new 'chief' that can actually deliver a business plan based on low emission vehicles without the company needing to 'manipulate reality' ...

HTH
Z

AdrianC

zeupater wrote: »

Come on VW, stop talking excuses & start doing, else appoint a new 'chief' that can actually deliver a business plan based on low emission vehicles

TBF, VAG have had hybrids in their mainstream range for nine years now, and full electrics for five years.

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

TBF, VAG have had hybrids in their mainstream range for nine years now, and full electrics for five years.

Hi

In which case VW should already have sector lead over their competitors & the view that there's threat of job-losses is simply noise ...

Maybe the underlying issue is one of scale & realisation, but I still doubt that anyone will listen to the VW views on anything that will have a negative impact on emissions related timescales!

HTH
Z