Electric cars

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

You're using "payload" to describe the weight of the actual load.

I'm using it to describe the potential maximum weight that can be legally carried - which is the usual definition used across the entire haulage and motor industries.

I think Adrian is right here, though not in a way that is actually useful. Marketing material usually refers to a weight of payload, so in some cases the payload is the maximum weight of stuff you can put it, rather than the actual amount of the stuff that's in.
The dictionary definition of payload is the stuff that's in. There doesn't seem to be any common distinction between actual payload and maximum payload.

What the industry actually uses, I don't know, as I'm not a trucker and have never used the term as is. I've always used "max load" or MAM when dealing with vans and trailers.

Staying on point; Adding 2000kg* to the empty weight will take 2000kg of potential load out of the GTW. For people running within 2000kg of a full load, that's a big deal and they'll need to stick with diesel. For the people that don't get within 2000kg of a full load, it's irrelevant.

You may even find that with the savings in running costs, it's potentially worth just adding an additional 10% of trucks to the fleet for cases where you're within that 2000kg band and making regular drops.

*I think there was mention it'd be closer to 500kg (1000lb) increase over the diesel equivalent. Whilst you're adding a lot of batteries, you can also remove some pretty heavy components (most of the 'engine', transmission, exhausts, filters, adblue system, fuel system, some of the structural material)

Martyn1981

Herzlos wrote: »

I think Adrian is right here, though not in a way that is actually useful.

Yes, I agree. The trick here is to say something that implies one thing:

AdrianC wrote: »

Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.

maintain the issue when challenged:

AdrianC wrote: »

Some loads cube out, yes, then there's part loads. But not many - and it's certainly not something any haulier will be happy to rely on.

but when cornered, fall back on a meaning different to that implied, such as 'payload' v's 'paying load'.

But of real importance here, and as reflected in your post, is the issue of relevancy. If Adrian is right with his bold claim that most loads (inverse of 'not many') are at max weight is true, then we have a serious problem.

If however a significant number of loads, and I suspect a majority, are not at max, then it has very little importance. I think clarification of this is important to the discussion, as it will reflect the take up (or not) of these vehicles. Therefore Adrian really does need to provide a link/reference to the data on which he made his claim, or perhaps admit, he made it up. We shall see.

I'm particularly interested in the grocery business, perhaps because I grew up in the industry/distribution, but more because the supermarkets have enormous fleets, are heavily into 'greenwashing'*, and I suspect are not close to max weight, so a rapid switch to EV's would be possible. Perhaps?

* I'm not against greenwashing at all, I'm happy for anyone to pretend to be green, by being green, and then laughing at me behind my back for being tricked ..... as I'm not entirely sure who has been tricked!

Martyn1981

AnotherJoe wrote: »

There are now videos of one of the "knocked together" mules accelerating at car speeds, seems they did a good job building that given it was such a rush job.

Hiya. What really intrigued me, and I have mentioned this before, is the fact that some folk who climbed under the trailer, behind the tractor, filming all the kit, spotted that the single gear reduction units, one for each rear axle, had different gear ratios.

That seems clever to me, giving a higher torque for pull off from one axle, and another axle better for highway cruising. But, and this is a big BUT, why would you bother to do this for a stage-locked mock-up, it would only seem to make sense if it's a test mule based on the planned final layout (that may of course change during development).

I think Tesla will shake up this market, and faster than expected. Some recent reports/articles have suggested that Tesla's greatest unveiling is the Jaguar I-Pace. The argument being that Tesla has 'forced' other car companies to take EV's seriously, far sooner than they planned too. The Genie is out of the bottle.

Martyn1981

AnotherJoe wrote: »

There are now videos of one of the "knocked together" mules accelerating at car speeds, seems they did a good job building that given it was such a rush job.

Also some pics of the semi charging up at a supercharger station. Apparently they plug it into two chargers at the same time, but not ones adjacent to each other, as that can reduce the kW supply rate (it does this for cars too, but the destination chargers, about 70kW, are independent of each other). Cool.

zeupater

Injecting a little more reality into the thread ...

Apparently, VW have thrown down the gauntlet on EV & confirmed that they will be building them in 16 plants by 2022, launching new electric models at a rate of one-per-month from 2019 onwards ... and to support this have already signed £18billion ($25bn) of battery supply contracts ...

Plenty of news available on this - here's a summary from cnet

The plan, previously dubbed "Roadmap E," is to produce up to 3 million electrified vehicles per year by 2025, with no fewer than 80 electrified models spread throughout its dozen-strong brand lineup, a portfolio that includes VW, Audi, Porsche and Bugatti, among others.

cnet.com : VW-confirms-16-ev-plants-by-2022

Three million EVs by 2025 would be a considerable achievement for one manufacturing group - in context, they built around 10.7million vehicles in 2017!

HTH
Z

bugslet

Martyn1981 wrote: »

If they really can deliver the 300 mile range model for that price and the specs promised (Elon has recently suggested they are going to beat the specs), then it's a diesel killer, especially in Europe.

I've no real likes or dislikes about electric, it's whatever it is, but at the moment I'd want an 800 mile range. I'm guessing that at some point - possibly faster than we imagine - a battery will be made will manage that kind of mileage.

AdrianC wrote: »

A typical European diesel artic tractor unit is around 9.5t unladen weight, and carries 3-400 litres of fuel.
http://tools.mercedes-benz.co.uk/current/trucks/specification-sheets/actros/actros-6x4-tractor-3346-3355.pdf

A typical modern curtainside trailer is around 6.5t minimum.
https://www.cargobull.com/files/fi/filemanager_files/Neufahrzeuge/Curtainsider/SCS-Broschuere-Transport-PC-GB.pdf

So unladen weight for the whole shebang is north of 16t, leaving the payload somewhere north of 20t.

Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.

If we are pulling a standard curtainside trailer, it's around 24 ton that we can carry.

Having said that, we rarely load much above 8 ton, I certainly can't remember the last time we loaded anywhere near weight capacity.

The people who would probably be most affected by loss of weight are the bulk carriers, grain, liquids, cement, that kind of thing.

Iveco and Volvo - possibly others - are investing heavily in gas powered trucks that currently have a greater range than battery power.


https://www.iveco.com/uk/products/pages/new-stralis-np-gas-truck.aspx

http://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/volvo-fh-series/volvo-fh-lng.html


I think as a small haulier, I'd want a lot more clarity about which direction the market will go in, gas or electricity, before wanting to commit to one or the other.

Martyn1981

Ban new petrol and diesel cars in 2030, not 2040, says thinktank

Ministers have been urged to bring forward their 2040 ban on new diesel and petrol car sales by a decade, a move which an environmental thinktank said would almost halve oil imports and largely close the gap in the UK’s climate targets.

The Green Alliance said a more ambitious deadline of 2030 is also needed to avoid the UK squandering its leadership on electric cars.

While the number of electric cars being sold in the UK has rocketed in the past four years, Germany overtook the UK last year in its rise in the registrations of new plug-in hybrids and 100% battery-powered cars. A 2030 ban on combustion engine models would boost sales of electrified cars in the UK and even raise the prospect of the country becoming an net vehicle exporter, the Green Alliance said.

RichardD1970

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Ban new petrol and diesel cars in 2030, not 2040, says thinktank

Well, they would, wouldn't they?

Personally, as someone who would buy an EV tomorrow if I was in the market for a new car in that price range, I still think 2040 is wildly optomistic.

zeupater

RichardD1970 wrote: »

Well, they would, wouldn't they?

Personally, as someone who would buy an EV tomorrow if I was in the market for a new car in that price range, I still think 2040 is wildly optomistic.

Hi

I'd tend to agree ... for VW to shift 16plants & around 25% of production by 2025 (7 years) means that they'd need to move the majority of the remaining 75% within a further 5, which is probably pushing it even for a high volume manufacturer with an already ambitious model electrification plan!

To be able to meet an earlier date (effectively halving the timespan!) would have a huge impact on battery supply and the ramping up of production which would need to impact on the manufacturing & marketing decision of building for range or volume ... if the answer is volume, then the ambition for range will need to be sacrificed ...

Potentially, if the date is brought forward by that much the likely effect would be to sideline expanding volume production of 'Electric' vehicles to allow for the 'Electrification' of the majority of production ... so instead of moving directly to EVs, there'd be a need to introduce an interim position involving plug-in Hybrid models ...

Looks like a thought by a 'think-tank' which doesn't spend too much time thinking! .....

HTH
Z

AnotherJoe

RichardD1970 wrote: »

Well, they would, wouldn't they?

Personally, as someone who would buy an EV tomorrow if I was in the market for a new car in that price range, I still think 2040 is wildly optimistic.

The proposed ban is only for "pure" petrol/diesels.

A ban on anything new being sold other than plug in hybrids could be brought in by say 2025 without any major effect other than perhaps on sportscars (not sure how many of those are hybrids)