Are degrees in the UK value for money?

dekaspace

Planet_Switzerland wrote: »

When I did my degree we were told the total hours of lecture time plus total hours of independent study should be 40 hours a week. Had around 20 hours of lectures a week in first and second years, so and hour of independent study for each lecture king of made sense

DWP tried that trick with me back around 2001, I only did 5 hours a week study as part time but they claimed I would do 35 hours a week self study thus I was actually doing 40 hours a week which means I wasn't able to sign on as I would be getting a full time loan.


Meant for 4 months I lived off overdraft and selling everything I owned.

gfplux

This might be slightly off topic but is still connected to value for money.
My daughter born in Luxembourg has a masters from an English University. She/we were lucky to start in the last year when the fees were +£3250 per year.
She has a good job in Luxembourg and probably would be good value at even at +£9000 per year as the the degree has given her entry to a high paying career in Luxembourg.
Presently within the EU qualifications acquired in one of the EU28 is recognised in the other 27.
This may not continue after Brexit making a UK degree or other professional qualification useless, if gained AFTER Brexit, if you want to work outside of Britain.
As I say my daughter has not been caught up in that problem but she would still have had 27 other countries to study in.
Those who have a personal interest in this (child due to study in a UK university or any one getting their qualification after March 2019) should write to their MP to ask when this matter will come up in the Brexit negotiations and if it is important to the British side.
I understand (just a rumour) that this issue has been moved from "citizens rights" being discussed now to "trade" that will be discussed much later.

michaels

gfplux wrote: »

This may not continue after Brexit making a UK degree or other professional qualification useless, if gained AFTER Brexit, if you want to work outside of Britain.

Apparently the world consists only of Britain and Europe (='outside of Britain')

gfplux

michaels wrote: »

Apparently the world consists only of Britain and Europe (='outside of Britain')

I thought I was adding to the collective knowledge and did not expect an angry remark like that.
Just to be clear Professional qualifications acquired in the UK are presently recognised in the EU 27. As this, at the time, was considered a great benefit of being in the EU, I am assuming those same qualifications are not immediately excepted in every country outside of the EU, i.e. "The rest of the world"

However I am sure you are about to tell me otherwise.

LHW99

I am assuming those same qualifications are not immediately excepted in every country outside of the EU, i.e. "The rest of the world"

Whilst potentially recognition by one country of qualifications obtained in another country is beneficial, in practise there are still instances where issues arise, even across EU countries.
For example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10848645/German-doctor-will-not-be-extradited-to-UK-over-patient-death.html
IMO, competance is more important that degree recognition, and if this requires additional testing or provision of evidence, such as is currently applicable to non-EEA doctors, this is worth it to protect those who use the services offered.
https://www.rcog.org.uk/en/careers-training/about-specialty-training-in-og/certification-of-training-specialist-registration/cesr/

Arklight

The marginal cost of teaching a student on a mid table uni / ex poly is about £3500 per year. This is a very general estimate but is about the average.


However fixed costs can vary enormously. Most mid and lower table universities are operating on the assumption that some of them won't exist in 10 - 20 years and are fighting not to be the ones who close or are amalgamated into bigger neighbours.


Therefore there is a scramble for capital investment to provide campuses, courses, marketing, learning support, and unique selling points that will attract students. Some institutions are literally staggering under debt as they try and pay for gleaming new teaching spaces and extravagant marketing strategies.


Because students are paying so much they no longer expect going to university to be a personal experience, they expect it to deliver a managed experience. They are basically customers who are signing up for a 3 year contract where, if you include accommodation costs, will see them hand over well in excess of £50,000 to their alma mater.


They expect to see sports facilities, restaurants, cinemas, and shops on campus, and that their university has an exciting and active personality that reflects them. None of this has anything to do with teaching but it is how the industry has changed as successive governments have monetised HE.


Current students are dissatisfied about the number of contact hours they receive and do not feel like they are getting value for money with quantity of teaching, even if they are happy with teaching.


Unless HE is demonitised then we will inevitably drift into the same model as the US, where students have a high number of spoon fed contact hours and additional support, learning programmes that are very dumbed down.


Before people say that the US produces some of the finest academic output in the world, yes this is true, but there is an invisible segregation in even elite US universities, of people learning advanced calculus alongside other people taking classes in fencing and pop culture.

chucknorris

GreatApe wrote: »

University education is poor value and inefficient
I think 90%+ of my university graduate friends say the same

If you want to learn a particular subject there is nothing faster or more efficent than reading a book or at least that waa the case in my day. Actually nowadays there are fantastic online lectures and tutorials many times better than a lecture from a bored 3rd rate teacher.

I'm not saying all lecturers are perfect (just like any other profession there is good and bad), but I would definitely expect that if you selected 65 (the number of students on my module) randomly chosen level 5 quantity surveying students, that they would NOT learn more efficiently from a book as they would from my lectures/tutorials etc. (supplemented of course by private study).

The system that I use is based on 'learning by doing' over a number of sessions. First I deliver a lecture on a particular topic, then they tackle a formative exercise based around that lecture, and I provide tutorials on an ad-hoc basis with them to assist them when they need help. After they have completed the exercise, I will then go through the model answer with them, as well as anonymously marking one piece of student's work (so that they appreciate how I will eventually mark their exam paper). The next session will be tutorials again to explain anything that they didn't fully understand from the previous session, then I repeat that process with another topic.

They know that their end of module assessment will be an exam, which is based upon one of the formative exercises that they have completed, and it is up to them to revise all the topics, but with my assistance as the last 3 session of the module are tutorials.

I don't have to work, I do it because I am passionate about it.

Arklight

chucknorris wrote: »

I'm not saying all lecturers are perfect (just like any other profession there is good and bad), but I would definitely expect that if you selected 65 (the number of students on my module) randomly chosen level 5 quantity surveying students, that they would NOT learn more efficiently from a book as they would from my lectures/tutorials etc. (supplemented of course by private study).

The system that I use is based on 'learning by doing' over a number of sessions. First I deliver a lecture on a particular topic, then they tackle a formative exercise based around that lecture, and I provide tutorials on an ad-hoc basis with them to assist them when they need help. After they have completed the exercise, I will then go through the model answer with them, as well as anonymously marking one piece of student's work (so that they appreciate how I will eventually mark their exam paper). The next session will be tutorials again to explain anything that they didn't fully understand from the previous session, then I repeat that process with another topic.

They know that their end of module assessment will be an exam, which is based upon one of the formative exercises that they have completed, and it is up to them to revise all the topics, but with my assistance as the last 3 session of the module are tutorials.

I don't have to work, I do it because I am passionate about it.

Also most people aren't autodidacts. If you want to train x number of engineers, accountants, beauty therapists etc then you need to provide a place for them to go and learn and someone to teach them.

Arklight

GreatApe wrote: »

Universities are primarily just day care for kidults. Really expensive and even poor at doing day care as very few kids actually go to the lectures. I recall my first day still it was packed not a free seat this is a hall for 300 or so people. Towards the end of the first year the lecturers were lucky to get 10% occupancy on the seats and even then maybe one third were literally asleep. This was at a top university were most people get a first.

Yours certainly seemed to be. Maybe you could find another one that will help you to grow up.

chucknorris

Arklight wrote: »

Also most people aren't autodidacts. If you want to train x number of engineers, accountants, beauty therapists etc then you need to provide a place for them to go and learn and someone to teach them.

I certainly felt that I had mostly taught myself when I was a student, but it was very well facilitated to enable me to do that so well. I appreciated that even more, after I had started lecturing.

Students learn more by doing, rather than merely being lectured at.