Are degrees in the UK value for money?

BobQ

Carl31 wrote: »

But how many actually end up in their chosen field? for many reasons, the majority dont, and that education is wasted, they end up in a totally unrelated career that their degree attributed nothing to, they may as well have gone straight into work

I think University needs to be revised in this country, into career specific subjects. Im a qualified accountant, by qualification pretty much exactly matches what i do in work day to day, why not tailor degree courses in a similar way?

I do not think it always makes sense to study in one's chosen field. Many people do not know what career they want when they apply for university. Many degrees (eg mathematics) are not directly relevant to many careers but still form a good basis for them. For example a mathematics degree is a good basis for accountancy or insurance.

My view is that people should study challenging subjects that those who recruit graduates recognise as relevant to a given career. Many degrees teach critical thinking and other general skills that are relevant to a broad range of careers.

But the problem is that we have too many low quality degrees that employers do not rate.

westernpromise

Carl31 wrote: »

Uni is probably the biggest gamble anyone can take in their life

You saddle yourself up with £30k-£40k of debt potentially, in the hope it brings you a lucrative career

But how many actually end up in their chosen field? for many reasons, the majority dont, and that education is wasted, they end up in a totally unrelated career that their degree attributed nothing to, they may as well have gone straight into work

I think University needs to be revised in this country, into career specific subjects. Im a qualified accountant, by qualification pretty much exactly matches what i do in work day to day, why not tailor degree courses in a similar way?

Two reasons really.

One, because it would amount to state planning of the economy. We don't know how many accountants we'll need in 20 years' time any more than we know how many media studies graduates we'll need. So how many places should be made available?

Two, because a narrow degree in one thing with one process is pretty much the opposite of a university degree, which is supposed to be a mind-broadening experience from which you learn how to think. An accountant with a broad mind who thinks independently is of value only at outfits like Enron.

Just because something takes three years, that doesn't mean it's the equivalent of a degree. Cab and tube drivers take three years to train, but that's partly because of anachronistic working practices and partly because of who you're talking about.

kinger101

westernpromise wrote: »

One, because it would amount to state planning of the economy. We don't know how many accountants we'll need in 20 years' time any more than we know how many media studies graduates we'll need. So how many places should be made available?

To find out how many media studies graduates we need, we can use the formula

p * h * z

p = the estimate given population at a given period in time.
h = the mean number of hours per day each person spends consuming media
z is a constant, equal to the value that obtaining a media studies degree enhances an applicants chances of gaining employment in the media. It's equal to 0.

kabayiri

I think we need to remind ourselves of the definition of 'lecturing' here.

Lecturing
The transfer of information from the lecturers' notes to the students' notepads without going through the brain of either.

westernpromise

kinger101 wrote: »

To find out how many media studies graduates we need, we can use the formula

p * h * z

p = the estimate given population at a given period in time.
h = the mean number of hours per day each person spends consuming media
z is a constant, equal to the value that obtaining a media studies degree enhances an applicants chances of gaining employment in the media. It's equal to 0.

Exactly and totally wrong.

In April-June 2013, people with a degree in medicine or dentistry had the highest employment rate of all graduates, at 95%, followed by those with media and information studies degrees (93%), a new report from ONS shows.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160108133350/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/mro/news-release/second-highest-work-rate-but-lowest-pay-for-media-studies-graduates/grad1113.html

Pay is poor, but then most media pay is poor apart from a handful of individuals in the upper echelons. But if you want a degree that leads to a job, and you aren't bright enough to be a dentist, your second best prospect is media studies.

kinger101

westernpromise wrote: »

Exactly and totally wrong.

In April-June 2013, people with a degree in medicine or dentistry had the highest employment rate of all graduates, at 95%, followed by those with media and information studies degrees (93%), a new report from ONS shows.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160108133350/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/mro/news-release/second-highest-work-rate-but-lowest-pay-for-media-studies-graduates/grad1113.html

Pay is poor, but then most media pay is poor apart from a handful of individuals in the upper echelons. But if you want a degree that leads to a job, and you aren't bright enough to be a dentist, your second best prospect is media studies.

The survey doesn't tell us how many of those students entered employment within the media. I don't think that it necessary demonstrates that media studies is the best route to any employment either, as many people will choose an advanced degree instead of immediate employment.

I suspect media studies is a very poor choice of degree if you truly want a job in the media anyway. You'd be better off picking something more focused to the particularly area of the media which you were interested in. If there's a columnist job going at a newspaper, I think journalism graduates are much more likely to be shortlisted than someone who has done media studies.

westernpromise

The study shows that media studies is second only to a dentistry qualification in getting a job. If those jobs aren't all in the media, then it clearly has very wide applicability across a broad range of possible graduate career paths. That makes it a smart choice.

The same clearly cannot be said for numpty subjects like maths and engineering, whose graduates lag behind, in their ability to get jobs, those who read subjects such as agricultural sciences and architecture.

The idea, however, that a media studies degree is not useful is simply silly prejudice based on ignorance.

GreatApe

westernpromise wrote: »

The study shows that media studies is second only to a dentistry qualification in getting a job. If those jobs aren't all in the media, then it clearly has very wide applicability across a broad range of possible graduate career paths. That makes it a smart choice.

The same clearly cannot be said for numpty subjects like maths and engineering, whose graduates lag behind, in their ability to get jobs, those who read subjects such as agricultural sciences and architecture.

The idea, however, that a media studies degree is not useful is simply silly prejudice based on ignorance.

People with no degree have an employment rate of about 98% within 6 months. Even non English speakers have a more than 95% employment rate* within 6 months

That's actually true for almost any education level and any subject studied. People find jobs in the UK economy.

The question should be what the wages and conditions of the jobs found are.

If the media student is working in a call centre for £7.50 per hour that's not as good a the electrical engineer working at a bank for £50 per hour

GreatApe

I remember seeing some university poster proclaiming that 95% of their graduates get a job within 6 months of graduating trying to boast about how good that is. Probably works on parents and kids to get them in

Well the average employment rate (excluding those unemployed for 6 or fewer months) is 98-99% so going to that university makes you 2-3x more likely to be unemployed.

westernpromise

GreatApe wrote: »

People with no degree have an employment rate of about 98% within 6 months. Even non English speakers have a more than 95% employment rate* within 6 months

That's actually true for almost any education level and any subject studied. People find jobs in the UK economy.

The question should be what the wages and conditions of the jobs found are.

If the media student is working in a call centre for £7.50 per hour that's not as good a the electrical engineer working at a bank for £50 per hour

We don't need to guess. The media student is on £21k a year. That's £11.50/hr for a 35-hour week. The dentist is on £45k. That's £25 an hour.

Five years on, employment rates among graduates in Engineering and Technology are slightly worse than among those who graduated in Mass Communications and Documentation (see p12 of link below). The former are certainly paid more, if they're in a job, but only about 25% more (see p9 of link).

£50 an hour would be £100k a year. Nobody from any discipline is on that (meaning in reality that a statistically invisible or wholly anecdotal number are).

To stand the greatest chance of a high income you need to have studied Economics, Business and Administrative Studies, or Law.

Looking at the charts on pages 13 to 20 it's clear that in most cases the best predictor of earnings after graduation is the level of attainment before you went to university. Not surprisingly, those who went to the best universities tend to earn the most.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/619512/SFR_18_2017_LEO_mainText.pdf