Are degrees in the UK value for money?

BobQ

silvercar wrote: »

From an economic perspective, medicine is still a widely oversubscribed course with the hardest entry requirements. If demand is so high, why do we need to lower fees?

From a social perspective, lowering the fees may attract people due to the low fees rather than the vocation.

From a VFM viewpoint, its a bargain compared with paying the same level for media studies.

That is an argument for why houses are so expensive! It does not matter how many want to study medicine if we do not have enough places there will always be high demand.

We about to embark on a post-Brexit journey. That involves restricting immigration and perhaps sending immigrants home. There seems to be evidence of a shortage, yet you say there is not. Where is your Evidence?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35667939

Once we match the number of places to the actual need for graduates and allow some scope for graduates to opt out of medicine, your argument would make sense.

Yes it is possible that lower fees will attract people for the wrong reasons but that is why we need selection criteria. I think it will be less likely that people do this when they have lots of easier courses to follow.

Cakeguts

chucknorris wrote: »

Isn't a distinction at BTEC worth the same in UCAS points as an A level 'A' grade? If so, I don't see what the problem is. Are you sure that you are correct about 'unconditional' offers, that doesn't sound right, which universities are these?

You can get UCAS points for all sorts of things. It doesn't mean that any university has to accept them or that they reflect the same level of study or competence to get them.

chucknorris

Cakeguts wrote: »

You can UCAS points for all sorts of things. It doesn't mean that any university has to accept them or that they reflect the same level of study or competence to get them.

I never said otherwise, but in my experience of teaching at university, BTEC students generally perform at least as well A level students (this is for a vocational degree) when the BTEC is in a relative subject area. I come from that educational background myself, and I was the top student on my degree course (not just in the final year, in all 3 years).

kinger101

chucknorris wrote: »

I never said otherwise, but in my experience of teaching at university, BTEC students generally perform at least as well A level students (this is for a vocational degree) when the BTEC is in a relative subject area. I come from that educational background myself, and I was the top student on my degree course (not just in the final year, in all 3 years).

I went the BTEC route myself (mainly to get away from the local 6th form). I didn't stop me wanting to do what I wanted, but even if I was awarded the highest grades (I wasn't), it wouldn't have been equivalent to AAA (I was before the star nonsense).

So even though three A levels and a BTEC ND are both full-time for three years, they're not regarded as equivalent. You can't do a degree in medicine with a BTEC ND in Science.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/ugstudy/applying/access-btec-entryrequirements.aspx

chucknorris

kinger101 wrote: »

I went the BTEC route myself (mainly to get away from the local 6th form). I didn't stop me wanting to do what I wanted, but even if I was awarded the highest grades (I wasn't), it wouldn't have been equivalent to AAA (I was before the star nonsense).

So even though three A levels and a BTEC ND are both full-time for three years, they're not regarded as equivalent. You can't do a degree in medicine with a BTEC ND in Science.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/ugstudy/applying/access-btec-entryrequirements.aspx

They are treated as equivalent in by UCAS, obviously you wouldn't get onto a medical degree on a BTEC, because individual universities will apply their own criteria, and I think everyone would accept that it would not be appropriate for a medical degree, and quite a few others, but subject areas like engineering, surveying etc. they will generally be accepted as an equivalent.

https://graduates.teachfirst.org.uk/sites/graduates.teachfirst.org.uk/files/ucas-points-tariff-pre-17.pdf

Look at the tariffs on the above link.

EDIT: I'm basing 'equivalent' on 3 A level subjects, obviously if a student does more than 3 A levels, they would earn more points. But 3 grade A's is going to get you into most places.

kinger101

chucknorris wrote: »

They are treated as equivalent in by UCAS, obviously you wouldn't get onto a medical degree on a BTEC, I am talking about surveying, engineering etc.

https://graduates.teachfirst.org.uk/sites/graduates.teachfirst.org.uk/files/ucas-points-tariff-pre-17.pdf

Look at the tariffs on the above link.

Well it would seem the Universities are operating their own tariff for some degrees.

AAA @ A-level probably would get you in to a medical degree at university. Depending on the competition and entrance exam. So that's 360 points.

Triple distinction at BTEC ND in Science is 420 points according the that chart. But will not get you admitted to a medical degree. It's quite possible to have about 40% chemistry, 40% biology in that course, the remainder maths and physics.

I'm not disputing the quality of those with a triple distinction. Unfortunately, many universities do.

I should add, I've taught on a prelim year for those that did the wrong A-levels to directly enter medicine. It's well below the standard of BTEC ND.

Jackieboy

LHW99 wrote: »

I agree (reluctantly) with the idea there is no commercial reason to reduce fees. However, the entry requirements now are over high IMO, probably because there is only room for a certain number of candidates while ensuring reasonable standards in the courses.
We need more doctors, so it would be good to carefully increase the number of places allowing good candidates with A/B grades to get places, rather than demanding A* because of lack of room. That would take more money though.

Unless there's a very specific reason/excuse for it, I don't want to be treated by or operated on by someone who can only achieve a B at A level!

chucknorris

kinger101 wrote: »

Well it would seem the Universities are operating their own tariff for some degrees.

AAA @ A-level probably would get you in to a medical degree at university. Depending on the competition and entrance exam. So that's 360 points.

Triple distinction at BTEC ND in Science is 420 points according the that chart. But will not get you admitted to a medical degree. It's quite possible to have about 40% chemistry, 40% biology in that course, the remainder maths and physics.

I'm not disputing the quality of those with a triple distinction. Unfortunately, many universities do.

We cross posted (my edit) I said most of that in my post. Triple D is only 360 (I think that you read triple D* which is 420 points, which is the same as 3 x A* a levels)

Jackieboy

happyandcontented wrote: »

Some universities are sending out unconditional offers to those on Level 3 BTEC courses who have no qualifications beyond mediocre GCSE's.

This means the students have no incentive to even complete their courses. It seems clear to me they are not considering academic standards or even suitability for the course, but concentrating on their own funding levels.

An unconditional offer doesn't overide the minimum entry criteria - you'd still need to pass your BTEC, just not with Distinctions or Credits.

Unconditional offers are nothing new, friends of mine had them in the late 60s.

kinger101

chucknorris wrote: »

We cross posted (my edit) I said most of that in my post. Triple D is only 360 (I think that you read triple D*)

OK, we only had pass/merit/distinction in my day. But triple D* still won't get you onto a medical degree. So universities don't always pay much attention to what UCAS believes is equivalent.

I believe it's largely snobbery, but universities are free to set their own entrance criteria.