Are degrees in the UK value for money?

CLAPTON

Jackieboy wrote: »

Nothing to do with Mathematics.

In nursing, the NHS wants experienced staff rather than the newly qualified, so unemployment is quite high for newly qualified nurses whereas experienced staff are recruited from abroad.

that makes no sense to me : if we are unwilling to provide experience to newly qualified nurses then we will never have enough as there will be little incentive to enter training or retain those that do.

CLAPTON

kinger101 wrote: »

UK graduates don't necessarily enter UK Foundation Programmes. There was a shortage in 2014/2015 but excess in 2016. I agree it seems a bit of a mess, but personally, I'd like a bit of an under supply. The bottom five-percentile should probably go and do something else.

in an environment with a surplus of doctors at all levels then that may make sense, but if we are truely short of doctors at most levels then it makes no sense to me.

justme111

May be instead of applying slavery to newly graduates one better look at why they are running away..

Jackieboy

CLAPTON wrote: »

that makes no sense to me : if we are unwilling to provide experience to newly qualified nurses then we will never have enough as there will be little incentive to enter training or retain those that do.

It's no different from employers in industry who complain about the UK skills shortages whilst cutting their apprentice numbers.

CLAPTON

Jackieboy wrote: »

It's no different from employers in industry who complain about the UK skills shortages whilst cutting their apprentice numbers.

indeed so, however doctors and nurses are (essentially) employed by the state and so is in the gift of the government. Also I would say the demadn for medics is easier to predict that than of engineers and scientists who are subject private demand from all over the world.

In any event, industry that complains of skills shortages are simply trying to ensure an unending supply of cheap immigrant labour from overseas, whereas (as far as I know) immigrant overseas nurses and doctors are paid standard NHS rates.

zagubov

CLAPTON wrote: »

indeed so, however doctors and nurses are (essentially) employed by the state and so is in the gift of the government. Also I would say the demadn for medics is easier to predict that than of engineers and scientists who are subject private demand from all over the world.

In any event, industry that complains of skills shortages are simply trying to ensure an unending supply of cheap immigrant labour from overseas, whereas (as far as I know) immigrant overseas nurses and doctors are paid standard NHS rates.

I'm surprised the NHS hasn't decided to follow the Manx example, where when people need hospital treatment you fly them to a major hospital in Liverpool and pay the English NHS for looking after them. T

here could be scope for us buying up beds in foreign hospitals. Many posters have mentioned getting dental work done in other European countries for a fraction of the cost of the UK.

GreatApe

zagubov wrote: »

We don't really need to incentivise people to become GPs any more than we already do, but we do need to motivate them to stick with the job. If the fees were massive but covered by a loan by the NHS and became repayable later, that might ensure people stay in the field.

It would have to be brought in gradually so prospective students knew what they were letting themselves in for, and we didn't end up with a bunch of disgruntled time-servers who feel trapped in the job.

Doctors should be paid peanuts. They should earn less than the nurses and cleaners

So many kids want to become doctors that universities turn down tripple A students. Why train useless physics grads and waste management and dance grads when we can over train medicine students and hire two for the price of one at hospitals in the future?

Why are medicine places so limited?

GreatApe

michaels wrote: »

I thought part of the rationale for charging students in the first place was the idea that it would 'concentrate minds' when it came to choosing what to study. Obviously a complete failure though - anyone want to write a thesis on why the price signal doesn't work when it comes to UK students choosing a degree subject?

its not rocket science, your asking a 17 year old to make a £50k decision a 17 year old who probably has not more than £50 to his name has no idea about real wages or taxes or budgeting for a household.

80% of those that go probably should not but they do as they have no choice but to go, they have peer pressure and parental pressure and the vast majority of the time its uninformed pressure.

Its simply selling hope of a better future just sign here..................

Its somewhat ironic that we 'protect' fully grown adults from being missold pensions or mortgages but we turn a blind eye to kids being missold an expensive often useful degree.

kinger101

zagubov wrote: »

Many posters have mentioned getting dental work done in other European countries for a fraction of the cost of the UK.

If you need to pay for your own dental care, the NHS is about the most expensive option there is. I pay about 30% more for a check-up at a private dentist compared to the NHS one. However, I'm in the chair for 20-30 minutes at the private check-up. My teeth are thoroughly scaled and polished. I've been out of the NHS one in under five minutes.

zagubov

michaels wrote: »

I thought part of the rationale for charging students in the first place was the idea that it would 'concentrate minds' when it came to choosing what to study. Obviously a complete failure though - anyone want to write a thesis on why the price signal doesn't work when it comes to UK students choosing a degree subject?

I've often wondered if whether part of the problem was that university used to be a testing and quality-checking service as well as a provider of learning. In previous centuries only a very few went to university, they were usually rich, and they stayed until they felt they were learned enough and would leave early if they felt they were at that stage. They didn't always feel the need to have a degree, as the whole system was a rich man's playground. They didn't even have to take exams until relatively recently

After the grant system allowed suitably qualified entrants to study for free, and once students in modern times were paying into it, I wonder if they felt that as customers and they should be treated as kings.
So, 1- provide courses we'd enjoy doing, instead of difficult ones that would make us good potential employees,
and 2- we've paid for a degree, right, don't you dare fail us or why would we study with you?