Are degrees in the UK value for money?

silvercar

CLAPTON wrote: »

why are their limited place for post grad training, if there are graduates available and demand for trained dotors.

if there are vacancies, presumably that means there is funding

Vacancies are for qualified doctors. Demand is for training.

CLAPTON

silvercar wrote: »

Vacancies are for qualified doctors. Demand is for training.

even with the dismal level of mathematical competence in the UK, I feel these strands could be linked up to make a coherent whole.

kinger101

CLAPTON wrote: »

even with the dismal level of mathematical competence in the UK, I feel these strands could be linked up to make a coherent whole.

It's not as easy as it sounds. On one hand, if we have an oversupply of medical students, not all of them will get places on foundation training. Which diminishes their career prospects. On the other hand, we don't know how many entering foundation training will stay in the NHS, go into private practice, or clear off abroad.

I'd be tempted to present them with a bill if they cleared off without at least 10 year's service within the NHS. I believe their training costs about £250,000.

SingleSue

happyandcontented wrote: »

Some universities are sending out unconditional offers to those on Level 3 BTEC courses who have no qualifications beyond mediocre GCSE's.

This means the students have no incentive to even complete their courses. It seems clear to me they are not considering academic standards or even suitability for the course, but concentrating on their own funding levels.

With BTECs there are units which have to be submitted during the course of the year, so when it comes around to UCAS application time, students will generally (there are of course exceptions) already have proven results in their course. If their education provider decided to do a two step BTEC (90 credit diploma in the first year, then the extended diploma second year), they will already have achieved the equivalent of 1.5 A levels.

There are also exams in some of the older BTECs and in all (I think) new BTECs from last September.

Also, just because someone had mediocre GCSE results is not to say they should be written off. Youngest had pretty bad ones, yet he is now the top student beating those who got all A* and A at GCSE.

Youngest has an unconditional offer, he hasn't got his results yet but rather than making him feel he can step back and take it easy, he has stepped it up even more...he's chasing a high achiever scholarship now. Plus of course, even with an unconditional, they have to complete the course, doesn't matter what grades they get but they still need to complete it as otherwise it is a material change from what they declared on their UCAS application.

CLAPTON

kinger101 wrote: »

It's not as easy as it sounds. On one hand, if we have an oversupply of medical students, not all of them will get places on foundation training. Which diminishes their career prospects. On the other hand, we don't know how many entering foundation training will stay in the NHS, go into private practice, or clear off abroad.

I'd be tempted to present them with a bill if they cleared off without at least 10 year's service within the NHS. I believe their training costs about £250,000.

why cant we supply foundation training for all the graduates : we have 4-5 years to plan for each intake

silvercar

CLAPTON wrote: »

even with the dismal level of mathematical competence in the UK, I feel these strands could be linked up to make a coherent whole.

Add in the cost of training.

Job vacancies. High demand for training. Cost of training. Desire for highly competent doctors.

kinger101

CLAPTON wrote: »

why cant we supply foundation training for all the graduates : we have 4-5 years to plan for each intake

UK graduates don't necessarily enter UK Foundation Programmes. There was a shortage in 2014/2015 but excess in 2016. I agree it seems a bit of a mess, but personally, I'd like a bit of an under supply. The bottom five-percentile should probably go and do something else.

Jackieboy

CLAPTON wrote: »

even with the dismal level of mathematical competence in the UK, I feel these strands could be linked up to make a coherent whole.

Nothing to do with Mathematics.

In nursing, the NHS wants experienced staff rather than the newly qualified, so unemployment is quite high for newly qualified nurses whereas experienced staff are recruited from abroad.

happyandcontented

SingleSue wrote: »

With BTECs there are units which have to be submitted during the course of the year, so when it comes around to UCAS application time, students will generally (there are of course exceptions) already have proven results in their course. If their education provider decided to do a two step BTEC (90 credit diploma in the first year, then the extended diploma second year), they will already have achieved the equivalent of 1.5 A levels.

There are also exams in some of the older BTECs and in all (I think) new BTECs from last September.

Also, just because someone had mediocre GCSE results is not to say they should be written off. Youngest had pretty bad ones, yet he is now the top student beating those who got all A* and A at GCSE.

Youngest has an unconditional offer, he hasn't got his results yet but rather than making him feel he can step back and take it easy, he has stepped it up even more...he's chasing a high achiever scholarship now. Plus of course, even with an unconditional, they have to complete the course, doesn't matter what grades they get but they still need to complete it as otherwise it is a material change from what they declared on their UCAS application.

As you say 90 credits is equivalent to 1.5 A levels if the grades achieved reflect that. Many colleges fudge their own entry criteria to the second year of the course. So even those with bare passes progress to the next year. It is all about bums on seats which dilutes the qualifications achieved for all concerned.

I wasn't suggesting that those with mediocre results be written off, just that if after that they don't achieve at the correct standard, (which for BTEC should be minimum Merit and preferably Distinction to correlate to decent A level grades) then any university accepting those credits for an unconditional offer is not applying any academic rigour to their entry requirements. Not all universities go down this route, so those who do are not viewed well within employer/academic circles and the degrees they subsequently confer are not viewed as equivalent to those from other institutions who do have more rigourous entry requirements.

Re unconditional offers, the reality is that many students do take their foot off the gas after receiving one and instead of striving for the Distinction they just coast through.

My overall point is that a place at university is not for everyone and if you can't achieve high grades on a lower level course then being accepted onto a degree course may simply be setting you up to fail and to incur huge debts in the process.

All academic institutions know this but they turn a blind eye because retention and progression are the HolyGrails and attract both funding and plaudits, grade of achievement is of much lower consequence to them........

zagubov

happyandcontented wrote: »

Re unconditional offers, the reality is that many students do take their foot off the gas after receiving one and instead of striving for the Distinction they just coast through.

My overall point is that a place at university is not for everyone and if you can't achieve high grades on a lower level course then being accepted onto a degree course one may simply be setting you up to fail and to incur huge debts in the process.

University offers don't guarantee a place as not all courses will run. An applicant who takes their foot off the gas could easily end up wasting their chance if the place at uni doesn't materialise and it's too late to acquire good grades to go elsewhere.

I think a student who's unaware of this is also unlikely to be curious enough to wonder why their unconditional offer was made in the first place, and what pitfalls this may bring.