Landlord wants to evict me and move back in!

david1951

Kalamazoo wrote: »

Good to see all the bored voyeurs of MSE stoked the OP into sending a needlessly combative response.

All they had to send after their initial response was to suggest the LL seek legal advice, and agree to communicate further only through those channels. Then change the locks to be sure.

Your second paragraph is exactly what everyone suggested.

Miss_Samantha

HouseBuyer77 wrote: »

As such it would seem unfair of HMRC to chase such a tenant for the missing tax. Would be interesting to know a) if the are able to do so and b) if they ever would.

As long as the tenant is indeed still the tenant there is nothing unfair as the tenant can deduct the whole sum of money demanded by HMRC from the rent.

davomcdave

All the OP has done is assert his rights in the face of an ill-informed or disingenuous LL which seems a pretty reasonable thing to do.

HouseBuyer77

Miss_Samantha wrote: »

As long as the tenant is indeed still the tenant there is nothing unfair as the tenant can deduct the whole sum of money demanded by HMRC from the rent.

Indeed, that seems fine.

Less fair if they come post tenancy demanding the tax.

I suspect the answer is HMRC can indeed do that, but choose to exercise discretion and only chase tenants who they believe acted in bad faith (e.g. my example above, intentionaly avoided registering to obtain a lower rent).

Maybe something that should get adjusted (i.e. make landlord's inform tenant they must do this at beginning of tenancy) but probably a fairly rare event so no-one's bothered to legislate.

Miss_Samantha

Telling the landlord that as per the terms of the tenancy you are entitled to remain until August and that he should take legal advice if he thinks otherwise would have done just that.

Escalating the argument was not necessary.

You can ask for an address in E&W, then, if you get no reply, you can remind the landlord that you are entitled to withhold the rent, then you withhold the rent.

Or, you can directly tell the landlord that you won't pay the rent because he didn't provide you with an address.

You are asserting your legal rights in both cases...

Based on this thread I would not let to OP.

MissMoneypenny

HouseBuyer77 wrote: »

Indeed it tells you what to do. It's quite clear that if you are paying rent direct to a landlord who is not resident in the UK you must register with HMRC who will instruct you appropriately.

What is less clear is what happens to a tenant who doesn't realise this is a requirement?

I doubt if many tenants know. I can't see landords who are trying to avoid paying taxes, telling their tenants this. If they use a letting agent, then they are the ones who will deduct any taxes owed by the landlord. It did appear on this site on a sticky a few years ago.

More here on the guidance notes for letting agents and tenants, on who must deduct taxes. Examples of how to work out how much tax too.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/521876/NRL_Guidance_Notes_-_19_04_16.pdf

Renting from a landlord who lives abroad and who doesn't use a letting agent, is a tax pain for a tenant.

itchyfeet123

Kalamazoo wrote: »

Good to see all the bored voyeurs of MSE stoked the OP into sending a needlessly combative response.
...
Still, at least they've provided entertainment for the usual suspects

That's only half of it. The long game is to get the LL to come here and start his/her own thread.

gingercordial

Yes, OP, do contact HMRC. Whatever the landlord is doing bleating about their tax situation, you need to make sure you are not liable.

It should go one of two ways and neither one should cost the landlord any money in the long run:

1. They have agreed with HMRC that they can receive their rent gross (ie no tax deducted by you), usually because they are already doing UK tax returns from where they are. If so, you should have received a letter from HMRC telling you you are OK to pay them in full. It may well be the case that this letter was issued to the previous letting agent/tenant and HMRC just don't know the tenancy has been passed to you so haven't reissued it. The upshot of your call will be that a letter (called a "direction" as it directs you to pay rent with no tax deducted) will be sent to you and everyone is happy. Note you still have to do an annual return for HMRC - check when this is due and ask for them to send you one.

2. No such agreement is in place and so you should have been deducting 20% tax. If you've been there since August, depending on payment dates you'll have paid 5 or 6 rental payments so far so can sort this out by paying over to HMRC instead of rent for the next 1-2, which will mean it is all back on track by the end of the tax year. The important thing is that you sort this out NOW so you still have rental payments to make from which you can deduct that tax bill. If you leave it and they catch you after you've left it will be your liability. In this case if the landlord's UK earnings (including rent!) are genuinely below the UK personal allowance they can do a tax return to claim this back. That's their business and their responsibility, not your problem.

Best of luck!

MissMoneypenny

gingercordial wrote: »

The important thing is that you sort this out NOW so you still have rental payments to make from which you can deduct that tax bill. If you leave it and they catch you after you've left it will be your liability. In this case if the landlord's UK earnings (including rent!) are genuinely below the UK personal allowance they can do a tax return to claim this back. That's their business and their responsibility, not your problem.

Best of luck!

That's what that government guidance I linked above, says too. Although it says the ex tenant can still collect this money from the ex landlord. As you say, much easier to sort any taxes problem while they are still paying money (rent) to the landlord.

There seems to be two things now -

1. Asking the landlord if he would like to negotiate out of the contract, if the tenant is willing to do this.

2. Contacting HMRC for them to advise on any taxes to be deducted from the rent

Both linked really, because of any taxes that might already be owed.

gingercordial

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

The guidance I linked above says the (ex) tenant can still collect this money from the landlord if they are no longer the tenant. As you say, much easier to sort this why they are still paying rent to the landlord.

There seems to be two things now -

1. Asking the landlord if he would like to negotiate out of the contract, if the tenant is willing to do this.

2. Contacting HMRC for them to advise on the taxes to be deducted from the rent

Both linked really, because of any taxes owed.

I totally agree with you (and the guidance) that the tenant can in theory get this back from the landlord, however HMRC has the power to pursue the tenant first and leave the tenant to reclaim the money by whatever means. I doubt OP's landlord is going to be particularly happy to hand that over without a fight so it will be court time for the OP to get it back. So yes, much easier to take it out of the rent now.

As an aside, as a tax adviser I do know about this obligation as a tenant but have never spoken to another tenant who does! My recent move was to a flat owned by a couple living in America. I think I flummoxed the lettings agency by asking about this point as the agent dealing with it didn't know what I was talking about (her head office did). However in the end I pay my rent to the UK lettings agency, not the landlord, so it is their problem not mine, and furthermore I found the HMRC direction for payment without withholding in the kitchen drawer along with all the manuals for the appliances.