Urgent advice: My car:Hell with buyer of my car - Please can someone advise me?

MarkyMarkD

ts_aly2000 wrote: »

They're the registered keeper and the legal owner of the car. If I lend you my XBOX 360 with a view to you buying it, and you run off with it, it's theft.

The new driver is likely running around uninsured as they're told the insurance company that they own it and are the keeper. The Police LOVE easy box ticking cases.

Normal people pay for cars, and arrange insurance without lying to their insurance companies.

She still owns the car if he hasn't paid for it. Anyway, she's the keeper, and that's not illegal in any way shape or form. If you think it is, then I'm driving around uninsured in my company car and you better phone 999 straight away. It's your moral duty.

TS-a - I suggest that you quit whilst you are behind.

Simply repeating things which are wrong doesn't make them right.

The OP did not lend their car to the buyer. She sold it to the buyer and the buyer made partial payment for the car and then defaulted on later instalment payments. That's a debt, not a theft.

People default on debts all the time and it doesn't mean that the supplier can repossess the goods.

The keeper is the person who keeps the car - it is completely 100% different to legal ownership. Blatantly the OP is not the keeper of the car as she's sold it to someone else and they have it on their drive/outside their house and have the keys.

The police are not going to investigate a case where you allege that someone has lied on their insurance application form. The clear offence which you will be presenting the police with is one of failing to notify a change in keeper.

I should point out that the OP's buyer can't tax the vehicle without the documentation, and that the OP is still liable for the vehicle being untaxed. And that's an absolute liability - saying "I'd sold it to someone but not notified DVLA" is NOT a defence.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your company car comment. TBH I think it's a red herring, but I'll respond anyway. Most company cars are insured by the company, which will correctly state that they are the legal owner and the registered keeper. Some company cars are legally owned by a leasing company, and either the company or the leasing company may be the registered keeper. If you are making the point that company vehicles ought to be registered in the name of the individual driver, I think we just have to accept that it's perfectly accepted by everyone for a company car to be registered in either the company's name or the leasing company's name.

p1an0player

In English law, theft was codified into a statutory offence in the Theft Act 1968 which defines it as:
"A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". (Section 1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

knowledgeman

ts_aly2000 wrote: »

I think I'll leave this one based on your advice here, better to quit while I'm ahead.

It would be hoped though that you could assist the OP by telling her what she can do rather than what she can't. This thread has turned out very negatively and doesn't help the OP at all. If I was her I'd be thoroughly put off my MSE. It's gone in the direction of many threads later, which I simply avoid outright.

I come here for a positive constructive jibe, not to become part of argument and hang out with negative minds.

If I was you Id learn to read

She has had advice (serve him with notice to pay or shes getting courts involved, to notify the dvla she doesnt own the car and cancel the insurance she pays)

Theres no point in giving her wrong advice for the sake of it, especially advice which could see her charged for a crime

You might not like the guys actions but they didnt steal the car so its not theft and police action will not happen

Therefore there advice is far more helpful than yours which will waste hers and the polices time and resources

cambslass

Thanks everyone for replying.

I take all your views on board, after all, this is what I wanted.

Marky-thanks for pointing out about the ownership, etc etc, it might not be what I want to hear, but I wish to deal with this matter correctly

I did not know that he became the keeper of the vehicle once it had left my possession (ignorance on my part ) and also I have never sold a car before but please read what I say below:-

I did not point out in my first post , because it would have made it such a long post, : I lent him the car at first, so that he could see if this would be suitable for him to use at work. The agreement between me and this person after the trial period, was that he would get the log book once he had paid all of the money.

Can anyone clarify three questions ? If he were to make a full claim on the car (insurance) would HE get the money? Or, because I am still insured, (didn't cancel as I didn't know if he was going to keep it) would I get the money?
And, is there a national database for Car insurance? So for instance, if he has insured it as the OWNER, and yet my insurance states that I too am the owne, who, if anyone would collect any insurance claim? Thanks everyone.

I think that after reading all the replies on here, that the best thing for me to do, is to sign my car over to this person and at least he would then get the fines, instead of me.

Please forgive me if I am not making myself clear, but this problem and the ongoing court letters has caused my illness to come on quite severely, and I do not need anymore stress.

This is the first time in my life that I have been taken for a fool, but then again 'There's no fool like an old'

Thanks again.DM

cambslass

Hi Everyone, I realise that I am replying to myself, but I wanted to ask you all one more question - Sorry :-)

Now, if I were to ask a friend to collect my car, and I paid the horrid person the small amount of money back that he gave to me, I am then stealing my car??

Sorry about this, but I am trying to cover all basis before admitting defeat :-)

MarkyMarkD

Cambslass

Thanks for your positive response to what isn't good news from us. I hope that you don't find our honesty puts you off from MSE.

Your additional information re the loan of the car followed by the credit sale doesn't affect the earlier advice, so it's probably good that you didn't mention it - it might have confused ts-aly even more. The fact remains that there was still a binding sale of the car irrespective of the partial payment.

It would definitely be theft if you attempted to repossess the car if the third party can produce evidence of the sale such as a sale agreement and I wouldn't recommend that in the slightest. If you didn't document the sale formally, then I suppose there's more chance that you would manage to repossess it - as DVLA record it as your vehicle, and because the third party's probably unlikely to get the police involved - but is it really the way you want to go?

Regarding a potential insurance claim, it's an interesting question. If the car is damaged in an accident but not written off, he'd probably claim quite successfully. If it was written off, though, the insurer would demand the registration document. As he wouldn't be able to produce them, he would probably end up not getting paid because the vehicle isn't registered in his name and he has almost definitely lied about this to obtain insurance.

I'm not sure why you are worrying though - do you suspect he might destroy "your" car just to spite you? As that doesn't affect the financial liability I see no logic in that.

But as things stand, there's probably more chance of him paying you up if he does get the proceeds of any insurance claim, so getting the car registered in his name is unlikely to hurt you.

simongregson

On the matter of fines for speeding etc. DO NOT PAY THEM, it is the driver of the car and not the owner who is responsible for paying them. Your responsibility (as the current registered keeper) is to inform them to the best of your knowledge who was driving the car at the time.
Just reply to whatever letter/notification with the details of this foul relative of yours.

MarkyMarkD

I suspect that these are parking fines, not speeding fines, so there isn't the same process for naming the driver if it isn't the registered keeper.

But equally well, I am sure that simon is right - thanks!

mrbadexample

cambslass, can I ask what documentation exists regarding the sale? Did you give a receipt? Is anything in writing?

Lord_Lardington

Infuriating. MarkyMarkD is totally correct in all the advice offered and I think the route forward is clearly described.

That said, my sense of justice feels somewhat unsatisfied and I wish there was more that could be done legally to shame or teach this muppet a lesson.

Grrr!!!