Help with TWO PCNs in Own Space in Private Residential Car Park

DevereauxMcGill

Hi.

I have read through Coupon-mad's very extensive and helpful Newbies post, and have also done some web searches, but I'm still unsure as to excatly what to do regarding my situation.

After Christmas & new year, following a period of about two weeks of non-use of my car, I discovered two PCNs attached to the driver's side window. I live in a gated complex, and my space is in an undercroft car park, accessible only via a keyfob activated gate. I am a tenant, rather than an owner, but have been living here for nearly seven years. The car parks are now "managed" by NSGL Parking.

The two PCNs were issued within two days of one another (by two different wardens, according to the ID codes printed on the PCNs) - one on 31-Dec and the other on 2-Jan, and were for "Not displaying a valid permit". I have always been a stickler for making sure my permit is displayed and up-to-date, however at some point (probably due to using de-misters) the permit must have blown off the dashboard and onto the passenger footwell, and I didn't notice.

So I'm left with three choices:
1) Pay both charges before the 14 day "discount" period is up (£40 each - total £80)
2) Appeal for them to commute the charges into one, as they were only issued within two days
3) Appeal for the charges to be dropped altogether.

Number 1 means this all just goes away (tempting).
Number 2 they'll probably refuse, and by the time I cave in and pay I'll owe £160, especially as I'll have pretty much admitted wrongdoing by offering to pay at all.

So I feel the only way forward (and my wife insists!) is to appeal on the grounds that it is my space (or rather it is a space I have been granted permission to park in by my landlord) and that I had a valid permit actually in the car at the time of the ticketing.

In fact, with that last point, none of the (many) photos the wardens took show through the passenger window; could I reasonably challenge them that the permit was actually visible but they deliberately failed to document it? I've since replaced the permit in its correct spot so I cannot prove that either...

Anyway, should we decide to appeal, what would your recommendations be? I'm unsure about using the template appeal for BPA members as, as a permit holding resident I'm fully aware of the signage and parking regs there (plus one of the warden's photos is of the signage), or is this moot anyway since I'm not admitting being the driver, and the point is to just get a POPLA code?

Or should I just pay up, since it technically was my fault for not noticing the permit had fallen off?

Sorry for the info dump. Any extra help would be gratefully received.

Thanks.

Fruitcake

What does your lease/tenancy agreement say about parking?

In any case you should appeal AS KEEPER both tickets separately using the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread that you seem to have missed on the page where you clicked New Thread.

Depending on what your lease/tenancy agreement says you may want to add that your lease trumps their silly made up parking rules.

What did the landowner/MA say when you complained about this?

Nobody here will suggest anyone pays these scams, so please don't suggest it again as you will only make the regulars angry. Everyone who pays and doesn't appeal becomes part of the problem, and helps to fund the scammers go after more people, many of whom are quite vulnerable.

DevereauxMcGill

Hi Fruitcake,

Thanks for replying.

>> using the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread that you seem to have missed on the page where you clicked New Thread.

The first thing my post stated was:
"I have read through Coupon-mad's very extensive and helpful Newbies post"
and later:
"I'm unsure about using the template appeal for BPA members", and gave reasons for this.

>> What did the landowner/MA say when you complained about this?

By MA do you mean the site management company? They have just deferred it to NSGL as they are managing the car parks. In other words they don't care.

Thanks

Fruitcake

I don't understand what you are unsure about with regard to sending the BPA template. Your situation is no different to anyone else's that comes here. You have parking tickets from BPA member scammers so you should appeal.

Depending on what your lease/ATA says, you may have further grounds that you can add to your initial appeal AS KEEPER, and may even be able to take the scammers to court for trespass, DPA breach, and conducting an unlawful business on land for which you are the landholder.

So, we really need to know what your lease says about parking, and also if it mentions parking permits.
A third party (the scammers) cannot add terms to your existing contract with the landowner.

Yes, MA = Management Agency. Again, depending on what your lease/ATA says, you may also be telling them they are jointly liable and you may decide to take them to court as well.

Although the thread below is about an IPC member, you may find the information useful, especially the last few posts, to understand what I mean.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5580336

fisherjim

You seem to have ignored the first line of Fruitcake's post #2 which is the most important!

The_Deep

I smell compo.

In many of these own space cases, PPCs are coming a huge cropper

read some of these and plan your revenge.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/213077149-Milton-Keynes-woman-secures-landmark-victory-for-flat-tenants-in-parking-dispute

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/ukpc-hit-for-352-for-discontinuing.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/tenancy-agreement-not-overruled-by.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/link-parking-lose-in-wrexham-flat-owner_2.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/smart-parking-settle-out-of-court-for.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/tenancy-agreement-not-overruled-by.html

You could be on a nice little earner here.

Half_way

The management company will just try and pass the buck, as you have discovered.
Absolutely critical is what your lease/tenancy agreement says, you need to answer this to receive any real help i resolving this issue.

A few things are at play here:
1: the management company is supposed to act in the interests of the residents

2: there is a good chance this could be a self ticketing operation where nominated persons may issue the tickets and receive a bonus

3: Your lease/rental takes primacy over any PPC rubbish, if there is no requirement to display a permit in the lease/rental/AST then why are you?

4: The management company are jointly and severally liable for the actions of its agents, the parking company, this means that any costs you run up as a result ( including time wasted) can be charged to the management company - this all hinges on your lease/rental/AST

5: if your lease/rental/AST is clear then there could be a breach of the Data protection act, as the management company's agents would have no just cause to obtain and process your data. As the management company has instructed their agents to obtain your data, then it could be argued the DPA breach is the responsibility of the management company.

your lease/rental/freehold/AST agreement is critical.
If you don't want to pursue them under the DPA, then you have plenty of ammunition to tell both the management company and the PPC to FRO and stick their permits where the sun doesn't shine, if the permits state they are the property of the PPC then you can offer them the opportunity to collect them at a time of your choosing or by providing a stamped addressed envelope to you

The_Deep

For God's sake man, tell us what your AST says about parking. You have been asked several times.

Fruitcake

The_Deep wrote: »

For God's sake man, tell us what your AST says about parking. You have been asked several times.

Perhaps they have gone to look for it.

DevereauxMcGill

>> For God's sake man, tell us what your AST says about parking. You have been asked several times.

We had visitors. I also have twin babies that need my attention.

The AST says nothing at all about parking, unfortunately.

Only section 4.2 - That the Tenant paying the Rent and performing the agreements on the part of the Tenant may quietly possess and enjoy the Property during the Term without any unlawful interruption from the Landlord or his agent.

...but this is really only about the flat itself, so I doubt there will be any comeback.

The_Deep

That is excellent, they are attempting to interfere with your leasehold rights, possibly an offence under the Landlord and Tenants Acts.

Pick up your shotgun and tell them to get off your land.