ESA, Permitted Work advice needed

Kerry22

Hi everyone


My friend is self employed but she had an accident which damaged her back last year and has also developed severe arthritis (which she was told was hereditary, she's 55). Her work is physical and currently she doesn't know if she's going to be able to continue with it, but she can continue with other aspects of the work such as teaching and speaking, marketing etc.


She has had an access to work support worker because of her dyspraxia/dyslexia and other problems linked to a genetic neurological disability. Her advisor at the job centre has told her she would not be able to keep her support worker if on esa, unless she made a permitted work application. She is not sure what to do because it's possible she may need to be on esa as she's very unwell physically, but she can still do other aspects of the work. She's just confused because she's also been told she'd only qualify for a nominal amount from esa, so wondering if it's worth it going through the permitted work application and not knowing whether she would continue to get working tax credits if on permitted work. Until her back injury and the arthritis development she was earning enough not to require benefits, even tax credits, and she has contributed a lot to her community with her business. I'm just sorry for her as she's down on her luck and she gets confused easily with all this stuff.


Anyone have any advice on this? Thanks

Bogalot

You cannot get AtW support if you are in receipt of ESA, even when doing permitted work (the exception being supported permitted work, which would not appear to fit your friend's situation).

It would be unusual to qualify for WTC when in receipt of ESA, especially if the ESA claim is income based (which is likely if she has been self employed for the past few years) - one would cancel out the other.

Alice_Holt

As this is a complicated issue I would suggest you friend seeks advice on this from her local CAB.

Some info on permitted work:
http://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Permitted-Work-Rules

"Permitted work must be fewer than 16 hours per week, unless you are doing supported permitted work when there is no hours limit and only the earnings limit applies.

For most people there is currently a 52 week limit on permitted work. However, if you are in the Support Group of Employment and Support Allowance there is no 52 week limit. From April 2017 the 52 week limit will be removed for people in the Work Related Activity Group of Employment and Support Allowance as well.
Earnings under permitted work up to £115.50 are allowed in Employment and Support Allowance
Earnings under permitted work limit are ignored (disregarded) in the benefit calculation, so the amount you receive is not affected.
Earnings from permitted work (below the limit) are also ignored completely in Housing Benefit and in most Council Tax Support schemes run by local councils.

The idea is to allow people to work for up to 15 hours a week at the minimum wage."


It is not possible to receive Working Tax Credits whilst in receipt of ESA and doing PW (if only because for WTC you need to be working more than 16 hrs).

Kerry22

Bogalot wrote: »

You cannot get AtW support if you are in receipt of ESA, even when doing permitted work (the exception being supported permitted work, which would not appear to fit your friend's situation).

It would be unusual to qualify for WTC when in receipt of ESA, especially if the ESA claim is income based (which is likely if she has been self employed for the past few years) - one would cancel out the other.

Bogalot the person from AtW told her themselves, are you sure on that? If so then maybe this wouldn't have shown up until after she made the application.


WTC told her she's fine re them because you can have WTC for a certain number of weeks while on ESA, but it's a worry for her if her health doesn't improve

Kerry22

Alice_Holt wrote: »

As this is a complicated issue I would suggest you friend seeks advice on this from her local CAB.

Some info on permitted work:
http://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Permitted-Work-Rules

"Permitted work must be fewer than 16 hours per week, unless you are doing supported permitted work when there is no hours limit and only the earnings limit applies.

For most people there is currently a 52 week limit on permitted work. However, if you are in the Support Group of Employment and Support Allowance there is no 52 week limit. From April 2017 the 52 week limit will be removed for people in the Work Related Activity Group of Employment and Support Allowance as well.
Earnings under permitted work up to £115.50 are allowed in Employment and Support Allowance
Earnings under permitted work limit are ignored (disregarded) in the benefit calculation, so the amount you receive is not affected.
Earnings from permitted work (below the limit) are also ignored completely in Housing Benefit and in most Council Tax Support schemes run by local councils.

The idea is to allow people to work for up to 15 hours a week at the minimum wage."


It is not possible to receive Working Tax Credits whilst in receipt of ESA and doing PW (if only because for WTC you need to be working more than 16 hrs).

Thanks Alice. My friend is disabled so does the 16 hours bit apply still? She has major disability issues of a neurological nature.


I suppose the 52 week period would give her some time to work out how her current problems (not her disability but the recent problems of the arthritis and back) are going to pan out and whether she can get back to her old self (which was very active and working full time despite her disability).


It's complicated enough for me to understand so I see how she's affected. I don't understand all these esa groups..

PHILANTHROPIST

Permitted work is all well and good, but it's a bit of a honey trap. Once you inform DWP that you are fit enough to carry out some permitted work, then you will soon be assessed to be not entitled to ESA.

Kerry22

PHILANTHROPIST wrote: »

Permitted work is all well and good, but it's a bit of a honey trap. Once you inform DWP that you are fit enough to carry out some permitted work, then you will soon be assessed to be not entitled to ESA.

I can see why, and she's not work shy at all. It's the physical side she is struggling with at the moment and it may improve. She really hopes it will as it was her livelihood. so she's a genuine case, and currently can do other work related to her business like teaching, speaking and marketing etc, but due to her disabilities and age she is not someone who'd get a job easily doing any kind of sit down work, no one would select her, and she really would be up for it if she could.


Perhaps they would make her go back on jsa? that wouldn't be a problem, she is really up for working, but one thing is for sure she's not skilled in the workplace, she's been running her own business for over 30 years and just wouldn't be selected, though she would try.

PHILANTHROPIST

Kerry22 wrote: »

I can see why, and she's not work shy at all. It's the physical side she is struggling with at the moment and it may improve. She really hopes it will as it was her livelihood. so she's a genuine case, and currently can do other work related to her business like teaching, speaking and marketing etc, but due to her disabilities and age she is not someone who'd get a job easily doing any kind of sit down work, no one would select her, and she really would be up for it if she could.


Perhaps they would make her go back on jsa? that wouldn't be a problem, she is really up for working, but one thing is for sure she's not skilled in the workplace, she's been running her own business for over 30 years and just wouldn't be selected, though she would try.

OK. That is admirable, but the ESA is not governed by admirers. It's about assessing whether one is, or is not, fit to do any kind of work. My guess is that the OP (of friend) will be deemed fit to work. PIP may, in time, be a more relevant benefit.

Kerry22

Bogalot wrote: »

It would be unusual to qualify for WTC when in receipt of ESA, especially if the ESA claim is income based (which is likely if she has been self employed for the past few years) - one would cancel out the other.

Thanks, this might explain why she was told she'd only get a nominal amount, something like £10 a week.


The main thing is she wants to be able to have AtW support because then she can continue doing the work she knows how to do best, even if the physical side cannot be done at the moment. And to have AtW support she was told she needed to have a Permitted Work application agreed (but have registered your point that this may need to be supported permitted work).


Whether it's time limited or she loses it because they'd find her fit for work doesn't concern her because she wants to work anyway (one of those people who's easily bored) and if there were another job out there she could do, she'd happily give it a go, she's very sociable, etc, but to be honest, she's been out of the work environment for too long. I know her, I know no one would take her on with her problems (which affect her behaviour).


So in summary, she's currently unwell, should be on ESA but doesn't see the point for the small amount involved and because she'd lose her AtW when that serves her really well and allows her to work (all be it not physically atm). If permitted work would allow her to keep AtW then she may as well go for it, but otherwise, for the small amount involved, she may as well not have ESA and keep her AtW which is more useful in helping her get work she CAN do, even while ill.

Kerry22

I don't suppose anyone knows, my friend cancelled her esa but forgot to ask if she still needs to get the capability for work questionaire back to them, it was due on friday. I'm guessing not. She called me in a fluster due to having been on the phone half an hour before getting through to them, she doesn't mind that, but due to her cognitive issues she forgot to ask about the questionaire.

Kerry22

Can anyone explain how do you know if you're getting contribution based ESA or income based? She's cancelled her ESA but I don't know if it's the right move for her, she tends to be impulsive....trying to help but it's really confusing to me, so it's no wonder she gets stressed.


I'm doing a bit of reading now because if it's possible for her to get permitted work, she may well be better in a few months anyway and she won't have gone crazy from being at home all the time.


I just want to help her out so she doesn't have to keep dealing with this stuff. She's permanently stressed and confused. I will go with her to citizen's advice, but trying to get through on the phone was difficult last week, but will keep trying as we know they are busy.