Excel/B W Legal court proceedings

hollieollo

I am posting this though I realise it is at a late stage.
I am disabled and rely on carers to go shopping etc. My two daughters are my main carers, but I have used one supplied by the local mental health social services.
I received a PCN dated 06/07/2015 relating to an alleged contravention dated 10/02/2015. As i do not drive and because this latter arrived 5 months after the event, I ignored it and all following letters. I did ask if anybody remembered parking at the Peel Centre as I would have been with them. I pay parking fees along with their other costs out of my DLA.
I own the vehicle in question, so it seems that they have got my details from DVLA, despite their not being a member of the necessary body to do this.
I have refuted these allegations and am now facing court next year.
I have tried to get advice elsewhere, but all I get is one-liners which are no help at all.
I have today received, via email, the witness statement from B W Legal with loads of poorly copied pictures of their signage, car park layout and a list of VRNs from their ANPR system at or around the relevant time of the alleged contravention.
I have spoken to the person I suspect was driving and because this was a newly acquired vehicle, they maintain they might have enetered an incorrect registration number. There is nothing similar looking in the list sent by B W Legal, but there are a few strange looking entries around that time.
Their witness statement states that they are not relying on the POFA Act provisions regarding any NTK, which presumably means that I do not need to divulge their identity even if I did know it?
There have been a number of cases at Stockport CC recently where defences have prevailed because of failures by their system to correctly register VRNs, so I have quoted these in my defence witness statement.
However, I feel that my main defence should be that they have not sent any PCN or NTK within the required number of days allowed, i.e. if no windscreen PCN was attahced to the vehicle(which it wasnt) they have only 15 days in which to issue their PCN.
Earlier on in exchanges with B W Legal I issued a CPR 31:14 request to ascertain what evidence they had. They never responded.
I would be interested to hear from anybody as to the validity of my defence as stated above.

The_Deep

If you do not drive, and they are not relying on POFA, why are they taking you to court?

Read up on "unreasonable behaviour", CPR27.14(2)(g) and prepare to take them to the cleaners.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part27

hollieollo

Thanks for the quick response.
I have read the relevant clauses you have highlighted.
So do I wait unhtil the court date or is there something I can do beforehand? Maybe get it struck out?

Regards

Chris

Umkomaas

Read the following thread then complain to Adam Jolley the centre manager. Ask him to intervene in this utter nonsense created by his agents. Remind him that he (Peel Holdings) are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71814288#Comment_71814288

Should this get to court, not only will you call him as a witness, but you will also instigate a court claim against him under the Equality Act 2010.

The Peel Centre ticket machines are notoriously unreliable. Have a read of this from the Parking Prankster's blog - hot off the press today.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/excel-parking-services-ticket-machine.html

hoohoo

Excel do not use keeper liability.

I would write to BW Legal.

I understand Excel do not use keeper liability and rely on the assumption that the keeper was the driver.

I confirm that I an disabled and rely on carers to go shopping for me. I do not drive and therefore cannot be the driver.

I look forward to the confirmation that the charge is cancelled. Please note that if Excel refuse to cancel the claim then you/they are using my personal data in breach of the Data Protection Act, and I will make a claim against Excel and/or yourself.


Letter Before Claim

The_Deep

Hot off the press!


http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/excel-lose-at-sheffield-elliot-v-loake.html

Coupon-mad

I have today received, via email, the witness statement from B W Legal with loads of poorly copied pictures of their signage, car park layout and a list of VRNs from their ANPR system at or around the relevant time of the alleged contravention.

I have spoken to the person I suspect was driving and because this was a newly acquired vehicle, they maintain they might have entered an incorrect registration number. There is nothing similar looking in the list sent by B W Legal, but there are a few strange looking entries around that time.

Their witness statement states that they are not relying on the POFA Act provisions regarding any NTK

That is true, they don't use the POFA and are assuming you were driving. You need to evidence that cannot be the case and show why they can't hold you liable - be aware the Judge will not be familiar with 'keeper liability' so it is up to you to show why you can't be held liable.

What did you put in your Witness Statement (not your original defence, I mean your WS this month, where you also file the evidence you intend to rely upon)?

What date did you have from the court to file your WS, are you still in time if not done? You need to use as evidence, a printout of Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, your Blue Badge and confirmation (maybe from your carers) that you do not drive and cannot have been the driver.

This is taken from the 'Small Claim?' advice in the NEWBIES thread:

IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO AND BY WHEN!

Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5546325

Here is his advice about how to set out your defence, which bargepole recommends is best posted:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71228944#Comment_71228944

Do not think putting in the defence is your only job. Once allocated to your local court, you will be given a clear date by which YOU MUST file the evidence documents and cases you are relying on, plus your own Witness Statement (yours, as bargepole says in the above link!).

Here is a witness statement written from a registered keeper who was not driving and you can see it is paragraph-numbered throughout and it references numbered exhibits, creating an organised argument with illustrations/evidence:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106959&st=40&p=1225247&#entry1 225247

Here in post #9 is IamEmanresu from here (posting as emanresu on pepipoo) explaining witness statements and skeleton arguments:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106957&st=0&p=1239147&#entry12 39147

The_Deep

That seems a lot of hoops to jump through CM. Are you sure that this is all necessary?

Why not just rock up in court, look the judge in the eye and say "Sir/Madam, I was not the driver, I am unable to drive".

I cannot see any judge in the land finding for the PPC, and if they did, the Daily Mail would surely crucify them.

hollieollo

I have already posted my Witness Statement. It had to be in by 27th Dcecember. It was in paragraph order stating supporting cases recently at Stockport CC where B W Legal and Excell lost because of faulty machines issuing junk registration VRNs. I have cited both because my driver always gets a ticket and I refund them. However, this was a new vehicle and she was unsure of the reg number.
My defence also relies on the fact that the PCN was not sent until 5 months after the so-called contravention. The POFA Act stipulates a period od 28 days to issue the PCN if it relies on ANPR.
I have stated that thery have failed to comply on that count, therefore there is no cause of action agaiunst the keeper. I have quoted Schedule 4, Para 9(2)e.They have no evidence of the car being parked without a ticket on display.
Early on I issued a CPR 31:14 request to which they did not reply. Again a non-compliance with POFA rules.
I have not mentioned signage because I felt the case srtong enough on the above counts.
I assume that I can still add to my evidence if I submit it before 27th December?

Coupon-mad

However, this was a new vehicle and she was unsure of the reg number.

Well just in case the Judge thinks you are liable for that, I would add some documents:

- the actual court transcripts of the 'PP' and 'QQ' cases if you've only referred to them thus far.

- and add a copy of Henry Greenslade's words that there if no requirement for a keeper to name the driver nor any lawful presumption that a keeper was the driver.

- and definitely ALWAYS a copy of Schedule 4 - the Judge will NOT have it to hand nor be familiar with it, so you need to file it & take it to court. No assumptions, have it filed and have it with you in triplicate.

- and a copy of your Blue Badge/Motability paperwork if you wish.

The POFA Act stipulates a period of 28 days to issue the PCN if it relies on ANPR.

It doesn't. It gives just 14 days if issued by post (and it is silent on ANPR).

Also be aware that it isn't just that Excel took so long to post a PCN to you. Be aware and ready to say, if the Judge seems to think the deadline is excused for some reason (they'd be wrong, but hey) how the PCN is clearly not written to comply with the POFA. Excel will not pretend it is, you realise they will admit they don't rely on the POFA? But you can at least be ready to confirm if asked by a confused Judge, that for example, the PCN clearly states they are assuming you were the driver, there is nothing about keeper liability or the POFA in the wording and for example, 9(2)f is not there at all.

And be ready to hand over Schedule 4 and Henry Greenslade's words and/or the other case transcripts in court on the day (if they don't discontinue). Just trying to make it easier for you at the hearing if it happens - have your documents with you, but make sure you've emailed them first - by 27th Dec to Excel and the local court.

Do it as hoohoo says, his wording could be in the body of the email you send to BW Legal/Excel with those documents that you intend to rely upon. This is a way of trying to force a discontinuance and making them see they can't win this one.

hollieollo

Thanks for the update.
I have already sent my witness statement, however, I am assuming that I can still add documents?
I do not have a blue badge. I get lower levels of DLA both components.
I assume the documents and schedules to which you refer are on the pranksters website?

Regards

Chris