Why are leavers so angry

BobQ

Fella wrote: »

The key issue is not so much Leave voters visions of how Article 50 would go, as that they all (at least all that I've met) were under the impression it would be "triggered immediately" as promised by Cameron.

Likewise, every Leave voter I know now still wants this. There is zero to be gained by delaying it, for the simple reason that the EU takes exactly the same amount of time to decide literally anything: That amount of time is "however much they have minus about 6 hours". If Article 50 triggered a one-week process, a two-year process or a 20-year process, the EU would use precisely that amount of time, before finally making a decision as late as humanly possible. One of the many reasons why people ACTUALLY wanted to leave.

If the plan is to Leave and abolish overnight everything that is connected with the EU then there is no point in waiting I agree. Its like resigning from your Golf Club, you disagree with its rules so you cancel your subscription and decide unilaterally you will never enter it again.

But leaving the EU is not like that. Its more like a divorce involving property, a business, children and pets. It needs negotiating and you need a plan for doing it. The Leave community see conspiracy everywhere, in every delay, but surely getting it right is more important than speed?

CLAPTON

Herzlos wrote: »

I didn't say that those with a shorter life expectancy should be denied a vote, but you must be able to understand why the younger generations feel robbed that an older generation voted against them, for what will have minimal impact on the older generation* but massive impacts on the future generations.


*The older generations tend to have more wealth, and don't need to directly deal with things like getting on the property market, getting a job, getting an education. Then there's the statistical fact that by the time we've actually finished negotiating this, more "leavers" will have died of old age than "remainers". Push things back far enough using just the demographics and no cultural change at it'd take less than 10 years for the vote to shift from leave to remain.

Given that; that by the time we actually leave and the shockwaves are being felt, the majority will actually want to remain. Can you understand why a lot of younger remainers are upset?

what an unpleasant and toastie like attitude to people especially older people
and the logical stupidity of the nonsense too.

Malthusian

Herzlos wrote: »

Can you understand why a lot of younger remainers are upset?

Yes, because they spend too much time on Facebook.

The idea that the young are having their opportunity to work or study in Europe snatched away from them is nonsense. Hardly any of the youth of Britain have any interest in getting a job or going to uni in Europe, as 90% of them can't speak a word of any language other than English. Those that want to still can, after filling in one extra form to apply for a visa. Given the barriers that exist against moving to another country (cultural and logistical) regardless of the Schengen area, anyone who thinks getting a visa is an insurmountable obstacle didn't really want to go anyway.

Nor does it affect the gap year crowd - nearly everyone I knew who did a gap year travelled in Asia, Africa or South America rather than Europe. Millennials are far less parochial than Remainders think.

It's a ludicrous idea which calls to mind that hilarious "CHILLIN - RAVIN - #VOTIN" advert that helped seal it for Brexit.

mufi

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

I'd like to know more about your sides belief that democracy stops the moment you win a vote....

Should the public not have the right to change it's mind and vote on that change accordingly?

Yes, but you'll have to wait 41 years, like I did. In 1975, being young and naïve, I voted to remain in the Common Market.


Having seen what happened in subsequent years I, and many others, saw the error of our ways and voted out. It's been a long wait...

Herzlos

CLAPTON wrote: »

what an unpleasant and toastie like attitude to people especially older people
and the logical stupidity of the nonsense too.

Do you want to try and point out any logical errors in my post? Are you just upset because it's a solid point you don't agree with?

Herzlos

Malthusian wrote: »

Yes, because they spend too much time on Facebook.

The idea that the young are having their opportunity to work or study in Europe snatched away from them is nonsense. Hardly any of the youth of Britain have any interest in getting a job or going to uni in Europe, as 90% of them can't speak a word of any language other than English. Those that want to still can, after filling in one extra form to apply for a visa. Given the barriers that exist against moving to another country (cultural and logistical) regardless of the Schengen area, anyone who thinks getting a visa is an insurmountable obstacle didn't really want to go anyway.

Nor does it affect the gap year crowd - nearly everyone I knew who did a gap year travelled in Asia, Africa or South America rather than Europe. Millennials are far less parochial than Remainders think.

It's a ludicrous idea which calls to mind that hilarious "CHILLIN - RAVIN - #VOTIN" advert that helped seal it for Brexit.

I'm not talking just about the ability to study/work in the EU (though that's currently easier than ROW). I'm talking about all of the collateral like the economic damage, reduction in environmental controls (younger people tend to be more environmentally conscious) and so on.

Are degrees/jobs/homes going to be easier to gain in this post-Brexit world than if we'd stayed in? A lot of us don't think so.

CLAPTON

Herzlos wrote: »

Do you want to try and point out any logical errors in my post? Are you just upset because it's a solid point you don't agree with?

love too

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”


― Mark Twain

and if that doesn't help then, ponder this paradox

in general the young are left wing, violent, passionate, revolutionaries, trotskyites etc and older people tend to be conservatives.

this has been true for probably 2,000 years

so the problem is why are there any conservatives?

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

...
Are degrees/jobs/homes going to be easier to gain in this post-Brexit world than if we'd stayed in? A lot of us don't think so.

Tell me which parts of the world have seen the most growth over recent years/decades.

This much vaunted EU you speak of can not even generate jobs for the young of Spain and Italy and Greece and Portugal.

The growth areas are all outside the EU.

It's those with a focus purely on the EU who are being narrow minded.

Herzlos

So you're trying to imply that those under 25 aren't wise enough to have a say in a vote, despite having the most at risk, and those over 65 who are essentially immune from most of the risk, should have the say? Where should your cut-off be?

I'd also argue that there's a much wider experience/wisdom gap from 14 to 21 than from 26 to 65.

At 14 I new nothing about how the world works. At 25 I had a degree, career, mortgage etc.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

Tell me which parts of the world have seen the most growth over recent years/decades.

This much vaunted EU you speak of can not even generate jobs for the young of Spain and Italy and Greece and Portugal.

The growth areas are all outside the EU.

It's those with a focus purely on the EU who are being narrow minded.

Ok. So how does being out of the EU help us tap into this growth, since most of the East seem to be using the UK as a gateway into the EU?