Straw poll: Do you want to retain FOM?

kabayiri

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

How very mercenary of you....;)

Absolutely.

Just like you want policies which push house prices up.

It's a bit late to apply for the post of "Saint Hamish"

There is absolutely no doubt the people of Redcar or Rotherham voted in self interest. Many feel they are losing out. They might have a point.

Doshwaster

kabayiri wrote: »

There is absolutely no doubt the people of Redcar or Rotherham voted in self interest. Many feel they are losing out. They might have a point.

There is no doubt that many people in places like Redcar and Rotherham feel like they are losing out but the question for them is whether leaving the EU will improve the economies, job opportunities and quality of life in their towns. Will local employers have the confidence to expand and increase pay or will they move their operations overseas to stay within the single market? Only time will tell.

If in 10 years time they still feel like they are losing out who will they blame next?

CLAPTON

Doshwaster wrote: »

There is no doubt that many people in places like Redcar and Rotherham feel like they are losing out but the question for them is whether leaving the EU will improve the economies, job opportunities and quality of life in their towns. Will local employers have the confidence to expand and increase pay or will they move their operations overseas to stay within the single market? Only time will tell.

If in 10 years time they still feel like they are losing out who will they blame next?

you seem very knowledgeable about redcar and rotherham

can you tell us what percentage of businesses there export to the EU?
and what percentage will see opportunities to export to the other 160 countries of the world

And what percentage import from the EU
and of those that import from the EU, how many will start producing these product in either the UK or the other 160 countries of the world.

Why haven't these existing companies expanded their production during the last 40 years in the EU?

Doshwaster

CLAPTON wrote: »

you seem very knowledgeable about redcar and rotherham

I know Redcar pretty well as I grew up in the area. It was our nearest "seaside" so we had many days out there.

I fully understand why people in areas such as Redcar, Sunderland and Rotherham voted to leave. If you believe you have been left behind then you don't think there is anything to lose by taking a gamble. People in these areas have a very different experience of immigration and EU membership than those in multicultural London more economically successful cities such as Oxford, Cambridge and Brighton.

However, I don't see what optimism is for those struggling towns outside of the EU. I really don't think that companies who have never exported to France and Germany will suddenly start finding customers in Peru and South Africa.

BobQ

Clearly not as simple as a simple yes or no.

In the context of being in the EU I support FOM as it is the best way of meeting its objectives. Do I like FoM, not really but given other benefits of membership I am willing to tolerate it.

For the UK, outside the EU, I think some form of FoM is essential but only if we gain commensurate benefits from it. So in the scenario you pose of being full members of the single market, having control of UK law and no membership fee, I would say that it is probably a price worth paying.

In reality I cannot see us gaining full access to the single market without adopting some EU laws and making a contribution to its costs. But if we were to achieve an agreement on these lines then I would accept a form of Freedom of Movement.

In my view, Freedom of Movement should be:

- Subject to minimal border checks for certain categories (study for a defined period, with a job offer and evidence the individual was self supporting, for visiting friends and family)
- Subject to more scrutiny if someone is just looking for work
- not confer automatic rights to citizenship and
- have limited rights to benefits for a defined period.

BobQ

mwpt wrote: »

The argument against FOM breaks down at this point imo. I asked a number of times where the right level was to impose rules against moving to a new location (town, county, country, union of countries, trade block, continent, planet) but didn't get a clear answer.

It seems to be a rather fuzzy concept. If the dice were rolled and you were born in a union of countries such as the UK, you're happy that you can go and work in Manchester, Leeds, Dublin, Cardiff, London, Edinburgh if the area you were born in was a bit poorer. But some people are against changing the imaginary lines in the sand allowing "outsiders" to come to work in the same locations.

IMO, the lines in the sand will continue to change, as they always have done.

In a pure sense you are right but in practice there is "nowt so queer as folk". The Brexit vote was in large part due to people wanting to leave the EU for good reasons but many of those who voted for it were making a cry for help (as in the election of Trump).

Neglected by the political class they were told by the likes of Farage and Leadsom that their problems were due to the EU or immigration. Lack of housing, jobs, investment in their communities, public services the NHS or whatever, its the EU or its immigration to blame.

The problems mattered to them but were unimportant to the Brexit campaign as long as it persuaded them to vote Leave.The problem now is these people will probably not see their problems solved by leaving the EU.

Immigration does represent issues for the UK but so will the lack of it if we curtail it. One of the outcomes of Brexit will be to stimulate a debate on it. Unfortunately, a large minority of the population has now been fired up to believe immigration is generally bad for us.

CLAPTON

Doshwaster wrote: »

I know Redcar pretty well as I grew up in the area. It was our nearest "seaside" so we had many days out there.

I fully understand why people in areas such as Redcar, Sunderland and Rotherham voted to leave. If you believe you have been left behind then you don't think there is anything to lose by taking a gamble. People in these areas have a very different experience of immigration and EU membership than those in multicultural London more economically successful cities such as Oxford, Cambridge and Brighton.

However, I don't see what optimism is for those struggling towns outside of the EU. I really don't think that companies who have never exported to France and Germany will suddenly start finding customers in Peru and South Africa.

my question was what companies in redcare currently export to the EU and what percentage of economic activity is EU related
what analysis shows they are better off in the EU ? what massive help do these struggling towns get from the EU?
Certainly we know that the people of those towns are massively handicapped if they wish to move to London due to high rents caused by the population pressure in London

mwpt

CLAPTON wrote: »

my question was what companies in redcare currently export to the EU and what percentage of economic activity is EU related
what analysis shows they are better off in the EU ? what massive help do these struggling towns get from the EU?
Certainly we know that the people of those towns are massively handicapped if they wish to move to London due to high rents caused by the population pressure in London

What a bizarre argument. People wanting to move from their current region to London are disadvantaged because other people moved from their region to London? Did I get that right?

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

What a bizarre argument. People wanting to move from their current region to London are disadvantaged because other people moved from their region to London? Did I get that right?

I am discussing what is in the best interests of the people of the UK including Redcar.
I full accept that you have no interest in discussing the best interests of the people of the UK but are quite content to do harm to the people of the UK.

I consider it quite reasonable for a citizen of the UK to be able to move to London with an advantage over the other 7,500,000,000 people in the world :
you don't, which is OK but could you make that clear in ALL your posts as some people may not understand your declared position.

Do I get that right that you are content to do harm to the people of the UK.

mwpt

CLAPTON wrote: »

I am discussing what is in the best interests of the people of the UK including Redcar.
I full accept that you have no interest in discussing the best interests of the people of the UK but are quite content to do harm to the people of the UK.

If you believe migration is harmful then you must also believe that people moving from Sunderland to London harm the people of London.

Why do you want to harm the people of London?