Music grades

NBLondon

Cakeguts wrote: »

To answer two of your points. Regarding middle class parents I think we are all agreed that they can afford to pay for their children to collect certificates for whatever they want to. However not all parents pay for music lessons. There are schemes around where music lessons are provided in deprived areas and it is these parents who I have in mind here.

Gosh , I must have grown up in one then... and the exams were also paid for (as I said before).

The collecting certificates at school could be compared to having the right brand of trainers. It is hard on children who have parents who can't afford to allow their children to collect certificates.

Hang on is this middle-class or the deprived area kids again? Or the peer pressure from middle-class kids to the bright but less well-off kids? I was the latter and I coped by telling them to get stuffed.

I also have in mind people who are learning an instrument in retirement. They may not have the extra cash to pay for exams that they basically don't need but may feel they have to take.

Aren't retired people usually adults? If they don't want to use the grades to measure their progress they can say no - or change tutors? Are a lot of retired people taking up an instrument with an eye to getting into prestigious music schools then? More likely they are just playing for fun or taking up something they played as a child but didn't stick with.

(I'd recommend I Found my Horn by Jasper Rees to anyone thinking of this.)

The second point is that I have come across people who have just learned the pieces from the syllabus and can't play anything else and yes they do take grade 8 and pass. You can pass grade 8 without being able to read music as long as you fail the sight reading everything else can be done from memory.

I'd have assumed that you can't pass the exam without being able to do the sight-reading but I'll happily be corrected by someone who has done it.

There are also examples of children who take up an instrument take grade 8 (the latest example of these got a distinction) and then give up. These children literally only learn the pieces for grade exams because all they want to do is to pass grade 8 often for the UCAS points.

This seems odd to me... I can see it if someone was musical but not necessarily the most academic and substituted a Grade 8 for a 3rd A level. Or if they really struggled with the theory and history and were in danger of failing Music A Level. (I was the reverse - I could do the theory but not the practice - which is why I have a CSE 1 in Music and not an O Level.) But if they are intending to study music, I'd expect them to be a rounded musician and not just be playing the system so they would be sticking with the instrument.

Once you realise that this kind of manipulation of the grade system to get UCAS points is going on you can see why top universities are not interested in which grades someone has passed and are only interested in which groups they play in.

I can't see how it works. Are you saying that people take 2 A Levels and a Grade 8 to get the extra points and then try for a non-music course? In which case - the university is going to take the Grade 8 as evidence of some form of application and study and use the interview to determine suitability in other areas. If they are applying for music or something music related - then obviously the interview and audition play as much a part as the paper quals. But having the quals shows something more than "I've got no quals but my nan says I play beautifully so give me an audition please..."

I can just about see the situation of someone applying for something like Music Technology with A level Sciences plus a Grade 8 where the Grade 8 provides the points in place of A level Music or Maths. There won't be an audition as it's not a performance course but again, there's an interview and that Grade 8 would show an interest in Music and a degree of intonation and musical ear and probably put that candidate above someone who has no evidence.

Any music teacher who does not explain to a student that they can get a career in music without taking grade exams is not doing their job properly. All options should be explained not just ones that involve taking exams.

True. But first they would be finding out if a career in music is what the student desires; and after some time, whether that is a genuine desire or a childish fad and whether it is feasible given the talent and musical ability available.

Oh and by the way - CSE Grade 1 in Music and Grade 4 (incomplete) still got me a job with a world-renowned orchestra!

lincroft1710

NBLondon wrote: »

But Britain's Got Talent and X Factor are still available to them....

And how many talentless no-hopers do we see on those programmes? There are probably a lot, lot more we don't see.

peachyprice

NBLondon wrote: »

I can't see how it works. Are you saying that people take 2 A Levels and a Grade 8 to get the extra points and then try for a non-music course? In which case - the university is going to take the Grade 8 as evidence of some form of application and study and use the interview to determine suitability in other areas. If they are applying for music or something music related - then obviously the interview and audition play as much a part as the paper quals. But having the quals shows something more than "I've got no quals but my nan says I play beautifully so give me an audition please..."

No, that's something else OP has made up too,

You get UCAS points for grades 6-8, these give extra points above and beyond the 3 required A Levels, in the same way the Extended Project does, it gives you the edge over other applicants who have not bothered with EP/grades. Obvioulsy if you're applying for a music related course grades will be even more beneficial (despite the tripe OP keeps spewing about them being totally worthless).

Cakeguts

The ones who work to take grade 8 and then give up do it to get UCAS points. They aren't going to use the UCAS points to get onto a music course they just want the points for whatever course they are going to apply for. The latest one I have been told of passed grade 8 with distinction and then gave up. The top universities that take into account extra activities like sports matches and community volunteering aren't interested in grades they are only interested in groups that people play in. I am told that the popular instrument to learn in order to get UCAS points is the flute because it is easy to pass grade 8 on it after only playing for two years. If you are learning an instrument just to get UCAS points you are only going to want to learn the pieces for grades.

If you are an adult starter who has never played anything before and your teacher suggests grade exams how are you supposed to know that you don't need to take them? People recruiting new members for community groups try to use grade exams as standards in ensemble playing they don't realise that grades don't test ensemble skills. Why don't they know? If general knowledge about grade exams is that they help you to play in an ensemble lots of people must have paid for something where they didn't understand what they were getting for their money. Unless a teacher explains to the parent exactly what a grade exam tests how does the parent know what they are paying for? This is a money saving website. I really think that some people would save money by not paying for grades if they really understood what they were paying for.

These grade exams are designed for children so you don't have to pass all the sections to get a pass mark you just have to get enough overall marks.

You do realise that with grade 4 incomplete you would not get into some of the amateur orchestras in the UK?? I wouldn't get into any of them because I haven't taken any grades on my now first study.

Cakeguts

peachyprice wrote: »

No, that's something else OP has made up too,

You get UCAS points for grades 6-8, these give extra points above and beyond the 3 required A Levels, in the same way the Extended Project does, it gives you the edge over other applicants who have not bothered with EP/grades. Obvioulsy if you're applying for a music related course grades will be even more beneficial (despite the tripe OP keeps spewing about them being totally worthless).

This is not entirely correct. You can only count UCAS points towards a course if the entry requirements are stated as UCAS points. If the entry requirements are stated as A level grades having extra UCAS points makes no difference. Most of the top universities make offers based on A level grades not numbers of UCAS points. So in the case of a university asking for specific A level grades music grades don't make any difference.

LilElvis

Just bookmarking this page for when I get another great night of insomnia.

100+ posts and 1000s of words of drivel should have me in the land of nod in no time.

NBLondon

Cakeguts wrote: »

The ones who work to take grade 8 and then give up do it to get UCAS points. waffle, waffle, waffle If you are learning an instrument just to get UCAS points you are only going to want to learn the pieces for grades.

So there are young folk who take up an instrument alongside their A levels (with the attendant effort and practice time) to get some extra UCAS points to get into a chosen non-music course? Could be if they are a) organised enough and b) have the musical skill to do it. In which case the exams are worth it if it gets them into the course they wanted.

If you are an adult starter who has never played anything before and your teacher suggests grade exams how are you supposed to know that you don't need to take them?

Ask? Research? Say "I haven't taken an exam in 25years - no thanks!"

People recruiting new members for community groups try to use grade exams as standards in ensemble playing they don't realise that grades don't test ensemble skills. Why don't they know?

But the grade exams do test some musical knowledge, ability to sight-read music, ability to know whether you are in tune or not. Almost anybody leading an amateur group will know the grades don't test the ensemble playing skills because those people are usually musicians or music teachers themselves! Community Group is quite a vague term anyway.... It could mean the sort of choir that Gareth Malone likes where people have musical ability but possibly no training at all and the entry requirement is "turn up and don't be tuneless" or it could mean a village brass band with a hundred-plus years of competition history and fierce rivalry.

These grade exams are designed for children so you don't have to pass all the sections to get a pass mark you just have to get enough overall marks.

I'll take your word for it - my music teacher never told me that. Maybe because he was a decent teacher and wanted me to be the best musician I could be (despite my limitations).

You do realise that with grade 4 incomplete you would not get into some of the amateur orchestras in the UK?

As it was last century, I wouldn't even try - my embouchure isn't what it was... But I still got a (non-playing) short-term job with the Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields because I could read music and other candidates could only sing along with the radio.

I wouldn't get into any of them because I haven't taken any grades on my now first study.

Aha!

Have we finally found the source of your thread?

You've taken up something. Your tutor has tried to suggest grades and you don't want to do them for whatever reason. You're presumably an adult. Say no. Change tutor if it's annoying enough.

Besides - as you've already told us... If you're good enough to audition for whatever you want to get into (course or orchestra) then the grades don't matter.

You seem, Cakey, to have gone on and on introducing rambling overlapping arguments which have hidden your original point - that the grade exams are not necessary for everybody and could be a significant expense for some people. The answer is that learners (and/or their parents) should question the tutor if necessary. Which they bloody well should do anyway, whether money is tight or not!

Hermia

Cakeguts wrote: »

If you are an adult starter who has never played anything before and your teacher suggests grade exams how are you supposed to know that you don't need to take them?

How is this any different to any other interest or hobby? I am learning photography and one of the first things I did was research the different ways to learn and look into whether any particular courses or qualifications were advisable. I think any adult learner, in any subject, has to take some responsibility for their own learning. Besides I think adult learners are often just as pleased at getting a certificate as children are even when they know it doesn't really mean anything.

SpammyTheSpammer

Give this thread a rest everyone, no-one cares.
Probably not even the OP....

missbiggles1

Cakeguts wrote: »

The ones who work to take grade 8 and then give up do it to get UCAS points. They aren't going to use the UCAS points to get onto a music course they just want the points for whatever course they are going to apply for. The latest one I have been told of passed grade 8 with distinction and then gave up. The top universities that take into account extra activities like sports matches and community volunteering aren't interested in grades they are only interested in groups that people play in. I am told that the popular instrument to learn in order to get UCAS points is the flute because it is easy to pass grade 8 on it after only playing for two years. If you are learning an instrument just to get UCAS points you are only going to want to learn the pieces for grades.

If you are an adult starter who has never played anything before and your teacher suggests grade exams how are you supposed to know that you don't need to take them? People recruiting new members for community groups try to use grade exams as standards in ensemble playing they don't realise that grades don't test ensemble skills. Why don't they know? If general knowledge about grade exams is that they help you to play in an ensemble lots of people must have paid for something where they didn't understand what they were getting for their money. Unless a teacher explains to the parent exactly what a grade exam tests how does the parent know what they are paying for? This is a money saving website. I really think that some people would save money by not paying for grades if they really understood what they were paying for.

These grade exams are designed for children so you don't have to pass all the sections to get a pass mark you just have to get enough overall marks.

You do realise that with grade 4 incomplete you would not get into some of the amateur orchestras in the UK?? I wouldn't get into any of them because I haven't taken any grades on my now first study.

Surely that's an argument in favour of doing grade exams rather than not?