Help with Highview Parking Charge Notice

Carthesis

1) Change the sub-title to "The operator has not allowed a sufficient 'observation period' for entry to the car park, nor sufficient ‘Grace Period’ for exit from the car park - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice."

2) Make sure you match the terminology in the KR quote - differentiate between the mandated 10 min. 'grace period' on exit, and the arbitrary-length-but-required 'observation period' on entry.

3) Use the full Kelvin Reynolds quote, and use that to make it clear that there CANNOT be a defined period for entry (which he agrees with) because the layout of every car park is different with respect to the placement of the cameras, the distance to the parking spaces, and the signage which can be read by a driver once they are parked and it is safe to do so. You can then use the same reasoning for pointing out why the 10 minute 'grace period' is defined as a minimum - and that's before you consider how busy the car park might be etc.

4) You can use the same reasoning to reinforce your point about "time on site" not being the same as "time parked"

5) If you haven't already, i'd be tempted to add a fairly short final point hinting at the possibility this may have been similar to a double-dip, where you went from a "controlled" area of the car park to an "uncontrolled" area (at the Morrisons), only to be picked up on exiting past another camera which has then incorrectly tagged you as being in the "controlled" area too long. Don't go to town on it, as it'll be difficult to be categorical until you get the site map, but just let them have a sniff of it.

Carthesis

carcuscrae wrote: »

Who do I ask to get that from?

PPCs sometimes submit it as part of the evidence pack to POPLA, assuming they bother to contest it. They may not, because they may well just give up. Just worth keeping in mind.

carcuscrae

OK here is section 4 ver 3

4. The operator has not allowed a sufficient 'observation period' for entry to the car park, nor sufficient ‘Grace Period’ for exit from the car park - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

The operator has not fully complied with Section 13 of the BPA Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice, namely the provision of ‘Grace Periods’.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

13 Grace periods

13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.

13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

There are, effectively, two grace periods. The first one, defined as an ‘observation period’ as detailed in Section 13.2, covers entering the car park, finding a parking space, walking to and observing any signs and deciding whether to accept/comply with the operator’s terms or deciding to drive away. The period of parking commences at the end of this period. This is clearly defined by Kelvin Reynolds of the BPA in the following press release in which he states

“An observation period is the time when an enforcement officer should be able to determine what the motorist intends to do once in the car park. The BPA’s guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket,” he explains.
“No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”
The BPA’s guidance defines the ‘grace period’ as the time allowed after permitted or paid-for parking has expired but before any kind of enforcement takes place.
Kelvin continues: “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules. If a motorist decides they do not want to comply and leaves the car park, then a reasonable period of time should be provided also.”

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

Kelvin clearly states that, “No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”

The second ‘Grace Period’, as detailed in Section 13.4, covers leaving the car park and clearly states there is a MINIMUM of 10 minutes to leave.

The operators PCN claims an overstay of 14 minutes and I feel I must raise the point that "recorded stay" or “time on site” is not the same as "time parked", as it does not take into account time spent looking for a parking space/reading signage/deciding whether to accept/comply nor the MINIMUM 10 minutes ‘Grace Period’ to leave the car park.

Further clarification of what is deemed as parking can be found in the following two cases:-

Parking Eye v Mrs X – which stated that driving around looking for a parking space is not the same as parking

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c289944f81b4afb375a97d05d5a80df6?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Jopson v Homeguard Services Limited

http://nebula.wsimg.com/f6d657adf7df70d27e1dd285688b5701?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

As Section 13.4 determines a reasonable ‘Grace Period’ for leaving the car park should be a MINIMUM of 10 minutes, it is reasonable to say that the ‘Grace Period’ or ‘observation period’ for entering a car park, as detailed in Section 13.2 and confirmed in Kelvin Reynolds statement above, then finding a parking space, walking to and observing any signs and deciding whether to accept/comply with the operator’s terms would easily take the same amount of time. Thus a total ‘Grace Period’ for a car park stay should be determined as a MINIMUM of 20 minutes, a MINIMUM 10 minutes at the start and a MINIMUM 10 minutes at the end. In this case the overstay claimed was 14 minutes, well within the allowed ‘Grace Periods’.

carcuscrae

I've also added this to the very end of the appeal to signify the possibility of the 'double-dip'

As a final point during the initial PCN appeal to Highview Parking it was clearly stated that the driver moved the car between the 3 car parks at the Riverside retail area during the timeframe stated on the PCN, therefore the vehicle was not parked in the same car park during this time. One of the car parks serves the Morrisions supermarket which was attended by the driver. It was brought to my attention by Highview Parking when they rejected the appeal, that

“Please note that our client’s property is for the use of the shops on the site and not for the use of the surrounding area. As such, Morrison’s is not part of our client’s property.”

It clearly shows that they have not even bothered to read the original appeal, as clearly if the vehicle was moved to the Morrsions car park during this timeframe then it couldn’t have been on their clients property for the time they state.

Carthesis

You can lose "Kelvin continues: “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules. If a motorist decides they do not want to comply and leaves the car park, then a reasonable period of time should be provided also.”" as that isn't relevant.

After where you pick his quote out:

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

Kelvin clearly states that, “No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”

I think that's where I'd but in a few words to explain why there can't be a pre-defined minimum 'observation period' for the reasons i outlined previously - effectively, you've pulled out that key line of his quote, but you then have to expand on what those "other factors" are.

I'd make the final point a bit more formal than that. Give it a numbered title as you have the rest, then say something like:

The initial PCN appeal to Highview Parking stated that the driver moved the car between the 3 car parks at the Riverside retail area during the timeframe stated on the PCN. One of the car parks serves the Morrisions supermarket, which Highview Parking do not manage. From their rejection of my appeal:

“Please note that our client’s property is for the use of the shops on the site and not for the use of the surrounding area. As such, Morrison’s is not part of our client’s property.”

I therefore contend that the vehicle in question was not parked in the section of car park controlled by the Operator for the entirety of the period stated on the PCN. It is my assertion that either the Operator does not have sufficient cameras, positioned adequately, to correctly capture valid movements from the controlled to the uncontrolled areas of the car parks at this location; or that the cameras have recorded this movement, and the subsequent movement back into the controlled areas of the car park, but have not correctly processed the data as two separate instances, leading to a "double-dip".

The latter of these is a known fault with ANPR systems ...

And then you can have a read of the "double-dip" thread (linked from the **NEWBIES** thread) for some more info to put in there.

I also recall a similar case to yours on the Parking Prankster blog, whereby there were two different businesses which effectively "shared" a car park (one was a vet and the other I don't recall) where the judge made it very clear that Operators have to be careful to not misconstrue the data. Obviously it is ridiculous to think that Morrison's don't have a right to get people in and out of their own car park. Might be useful to reference that case here.

carcuscrae

Ok, so i think i'm finally there so now going to upload to POPLA.

So I assume I sign off the letter with my name and then save as a PDF?

When I get to the POPLA website in stage 1 is it this section I choose?

Other Grounds for appeal
Appeals based solely on the following grounds for appeal are less likely to be successful

Thanks

Umkomaas

Yes, use the 'Other Grounds for Appeal'.

There is absolutely NO evidence from POPLA (or from anywhere else) that using the above means appeals are less likely to be successful. And as that tick box has been there from the early days of POPLA's existence, you start to realise that this is completely misleading misinformation (possibly encouraged by POPLA's masters, the BPA, whose masters are the PPC's - go figure!).

carcuscrae

Umkomaas wrote: »

Yes, use the 'Other Grounds for Appeal'.

There is absolutely NO evidence from POPLA (or from anywhere else) that using the above means appeals are less likely to be successful. And as that tick box has been there from the early days of POPLA's existence, you start to realise that this is completely misleading misinformation (possibly encouraged by POPLA's masters, the BPA, whose masters are the PPC's - go figure!).

Its probably been put there to discourage people from raising a long appeal!!

Thanks

carcuscrae

I have sent the appeal tonight and will report back here with the result.

Can anyone tell me how long it normally takes please?

Thanks

Umkomaas

3-5 weeks, but sometimes very quickly if the PPC throws in the towel.